Minutes IETF102: nwcrg
minutes-102-nwcrg-02

Meeting Minutes Coding for efficient NetWork Communications Research Group (nwcrg) RG
Title Minutes IETF102: nwcrg
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Last updated 2018-07-23

Meeting Minutes
minutes-102-nwcrg

-------------------------------------
NWCRG @ IETF-102 (Montreal) - Minutes
-------------------------------------
Thursday, July 19, 2018
Morning session I, 9:30-11:30
Room: Notre Dame

More information: https://datatracker.ietf.org/rg/nwcrg/
Meetecho recording:
https://play.conf.meetecho.com/Playout/?session=IETF102-NWCRG-20180719-0930

00- Welcome, administrative and general matters, information for new
participants
    (Chairs) (10')

See Chairs Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-nwcrg-00-chairs-slides-01

PART I: NC building blocks (start: 9:40)
=========================================

01- "BATS codes" (Raymond W. Yeung, remotely)
---------------------------------------------
Slides are in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-nwcrg-01-yeung-bats-02

 - Q (Dave Oran): what’s the transmission overhead of the code?
 - A: Matrix code with PRNG LNC with small batch size overhead is very small.
 - Q (DaveO): what about congestive losses rather than wireless losses?
 - A: doesn’t matter.
 - Q (Yunfei Zhang, Tencent): is it easy to install? What is the limit on
 speed/computation? - A: with weak CPUs, it can be hard. In case of smart
 streetlights, we had the luxury of using a computer. - A: using a relatively
 powerful platform to do the network coding computations. - Q: NC around for
 many years but computational cost is high. Do you see any benefits in cellular
 or 5G? - A: BATS codes are an efficient implementation of RLNC that should
 work well. - Marie-Jose: we will have a discussion/draft on implementation
 issues about RLNC and you're welcome to participate.
   Also deployments exist so ask to the list, people may give concrete
   information.
 - Q (MJM): chair-hat off: have you looked at ICN approaches for multi-hop
 communications? - A: haven’t looked at it yet. - Q (MJM): chair hat on: do you
 intend to write a draft? - A: we're thinking about it. Maybe.

02- Discussion on FEC Scheme, signaling and protocol (Vincent Roca, all)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slides are in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-nwcrg-02-roca-fec-signaling-and-protocol-03

 - Q: (DaveO): signaling is an ambiguous term can cover both metadata in the
 protocol and separate "out of band" stuff - A: you're right - let’s be clear
 about this

Question in agenda: what about draft-heide-nwcrg-rlnc?
------------------------------------------------------

 - A (Kerim Fouli, CodeOn): thanks for comments. We didn't want to make this ID
 too wide, e.g., no algorithm is specified,
        we mainly focus on the format that we want to be reusable. The question
        of scope is important and we'll clarify it.
 - C (MJM): please use to the list.
 - Q (Brandon Williams, Akamai): (1) it would be valuable to explore whether a
 common framing is feasible in this RG.
        (2) Otherwise, if we look at a separate session establishment protocol,
        would anybody use it? Ask question and evaluate whether or not people
        will use it. (3) When we see presentations of individual codes there
        isn’t commonality in how the benefits and performance are evaluated. I
        suggest to come up with a common framework for evaluating codes.
 - A: Yes concerning the evalation framework. It's in scope. Concerning
 negotiation of parameters it’s actually a very basic
        approach: it's just a few parameters that are communicated rather than
        negotiated.
 - Q (DaveO): be careful about using the term "negotiation" when the signaling
 may not want it. - A: yes

03- "Generic API for Sliding Window FEC Codes" (Vincent Roca)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Slides are in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-nwcrg-03-roca-generic-fec-api-01

 - Q (DaveO): does the API need all this codec description flexibility? Not
 what the crypto guys did for describing cypher
        suites. They packaged whole sets of options into single code points and
        limits them to ensure interoperability.
 - A: we need flexibility in the API.
        [Edited: in fact the current codepoint examples comply with DaveO
        suggestion: a single codepoint packages several techniques of the FEC
        Scheme, but we could perhaps further restrict the use of some API
        functions (at least by suggesting what are the functions likely to be
        used).]

04- Feedback from TSVWG draft-ietf-tsvwg-fecframe-ext and
draft-ietf-tsvwg-rlc-fec-scheme work (Vincent Roca)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slides are in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-nwcrg-04-roca-rlc-fecframe-lessons-learned-01

Q (MJM): Kerim, what’s your experience on implementation at CodeOn?
A (Kerim): haven’t looked at it.
Q (Kerim): it would be good to look at benchmarking, having a common
benchmarking framework that does not just focus on speed. A: yes, I fully agree.

Question in Agenda: what about "Network Coding and Congestion Control" topic?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 - MJM: this has been pushed out, however this is not going away. Think it’s
 important. Is anybody ready to contribute? - Emmanuel L.: we tried on the list
 to get feedback on the subject, but we didn’t get anything. - MJM: let’s try
 again? I was also planning to propose a draft on "NC issues for
 implementation/acceptation", maybe this
        could be tied up together.

PART II: Use-cases for NC (start: 10:40)
========================================

05- "Coding for QUIC" (Ian Swett)
---------------------------------
Slides are in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-nwcrg-05-swett-coding-for-quic-00
        draft-swett-nwcrg-coding-for-quic / draft-roca-nwcrg-rlc-for-quic

 - Q (DaveO): since streams can be uni-directional or bi-directional, do we
 need different FEC schemes to reflect it?
        Beyond complexity, this would enable to capture the full design space.
 - A (IS+MJM): It's a good point. You made need two schemes because you don't
 have the same requirements. - Vincent: in FECframe and RMT, we needed an ESI
 to identify symbols, but with QUIC the stream offset gives you this for free.
 - Q (Brandon): (slide 12) how similar is this format to FECFRAME? - A
 (Vincent): It’s fairly similar: ESI is replaced by Offset, the other
 Key/DT/NSS 32-bit word is similar. - Q (Brandon): how much value is there in
 applying a single FEC to multiple streams - the silent periods question is
 entangled
        with how things work when you have a bunch of individually low-rate
        streams. Just something to keep in mind.

 - IS: Need to update document to conform to QUIC extension mechanisms. Next
 step is to code this up and try it out.
        Maybe an intern at Google?
 - MJM: will talk to Christian Huitema about working together on this.
 - DaveO: also interactions with multi path - shouldn’t freeze design in ways
 that we might regret when multi path is done
        in QUIC V2.

06- "Quick status on Network coding and satellites I-D" (Nicolas Kuhn, remotely)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slides are in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/slides-102-nwcrg-06-kuhn-nc-and-satellite-00

 - Vincent: main comment was lack of research challenges in the draft. If you
 can improve this aspect, it would be useful. - Q: (Stuart  Card, Critical
 Technologies Inc.) Satellites can have reflection attacks to mount DDoS
 through Negative Acks, so
        security is critical. I'd be happy to have discussion with authors.
- A (MJM): discussion to have on the list as we have ESA specialists for
instance.

Question: should draft-kuhn-nwcrg-network-coding-satellites be RG Item?
 - MJM asks if good idea to adopt for RG in the room?
 - A (MJM): nobody complains. We continue on the list.
 - (Nicolas) would love to have security in Satcom covered, but not sure how
 this interacts with NC. - Vincent: there’s the security considerations
 mandatory section, but it can also be a research topic. - (Vincent): who
 agrees in the room to review it if we adopt it as RG Item? - A: three people
 agree (John + Stuart + Vincent).

Question: what about draft draft-matsuzono-nwcrg-nwc-ccn-reqs?
--------------------------------------------------------------

 - Hitoshi Asaeda: which RG should adopt this NWCRG or ICNRG? In any case it’s
 important to have a solution.
        We also need to clarify the requirements so it's good timing to adopt
        it.
 - Cedric Westphal: draft has been iterated, probably ready for RG adoption
 - MJM: we talked to ICN chairs and DaveO is here, one comment is whether there
 are more people in ICNRG who know about coding
        than in NWCRG who know about ICN. But it has been done before and we
        can go that way.
 - DaveO (as ICNRG co-Chair): could work well either way. But we don't have a
 solution to have it shared between two RGs.
        Maybe let Allison (IRTF chair) know and then decide.

07- What's next? (chairs, all) (10')
------------------------------------
    - Discussions on RG Milestones (see Introduction chair slides)
    - Do we need an interim mid-September?
    - Do we plan a hackathon for IETF103  (open-source sliding window FEC
    codec)?

 - MJM: would like to have an update to Tetris draft and have it RG Item, the
 same for RLNC. - Kerim: yes, we definitely will do that. - MJM: initial
 implementation is planned for QUIC, and we already have two documents "how to
 do it" and "how to do it with a specific code".
        There could be other FEC Schemes for QUIC.
 - MJM: we already said we would ask the list for adopting as RG Item the "NC
 for satellite" and "NC for ICN/CCN" drafts. - MJM: Want to do work on "NC
 Adoption Challenges". - MJM: We may have an interim (in Boston or in Europe),
 probably on September 26th. We'll put it on the list to decide. - MJM: We will
 probably have a Hackathon at IETF103. - Stuart: 99% people using TCP don't
 know how it works but think the opposite. We need a "network coding for
 dummies" document.
        It's really important to have people think they understand how NC works
        for them to adopt the technology.
 - MJM: we discussed in the past whether to have a "network coded transport”
 and decided no. We prefer to have NC and transport
        be independent.
 - DaveO: we had horrible experience with parity codes for real-time that broke
 RTP, so you could either have their stuff running or an RTP
        implementation running. It has finally been solved by DVB who had more
        power. But it's unfortunate we had it solved 3 years after the fact.
 - MJM: start with list discussion about what we think the issues are. It would
 be interesting to have companies come to the list and
        say what issues they faced. We all think performance improve but at
        what cost?
 - MJM: Do we need an interim mid-September?
 - A: will ask the list whether and if so where.
 - MJM: Do we plan a hackathon for IETF103  (open-source sliding window FEC
 codec)? - A: seems to be good interest in it. Having a decent API draft is a
 prerequisite, now it's done we can continue.