Minutes IETF103: 6tisch
minutes-103-6tisch-00

# Minutes, IETF 103 6TiSCH WG Meeting #

Note: these minutes are formatted using Markdown.

Agenda and Meeting Information
==============================

```
Meeting        :   IETF 103 Thursday 8 November 2018
Time           :   16:10-18:10 Thursday Afternoon session II (120min)
Location       :   Boromphimarn 3, Bangkok Marriott Marquis Queen's Park Hotel
Agenda         :  
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/agenda-103-6tisch Meeting
Slides :   https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials.html Etherpad    
  :  
http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-103-6tisch?useMonospaceFont=true
Meetecho       :   http://www.meetecho.com/ietf103/6tisch/ Audio stream   :  
http://ietf103streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf1032.m3u

Chairs         :   Pascal Thubert <pthubert@cisco.com>
                   Thomas Watteyne <thomas.watteyne@inria.fr>
Responsible AD :   Suresh Krishnan

WG URLs        :   http://tools.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/
                   https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/
                   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6tisch
                   https://bitbucket.org/6tisch

 Intro and Status (chairs)

    * Note-Well, Blue Sheets, Scribes, Agenda Bashing           [10min]
    * Status of the work, link with other WGs

 Chartered items

    * draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture                            [10min]
      (Pascal Thubert)
      goal: prepare WGLC

    * rfc8480                                                    [5min]
      (Xavi Vilajosana, remote)
      goal: status on publication

    * draft-ietf-6tisch-msf
        * intro update (Simon Duquennoy)                         [5min]
        * simulation campaign (Yasuyuki Tanaka, remote)         [15min]
        * experimental campaign (Tengfei Chang, remote)         [15min]
      goal: discuss ongoing optimizations

    * draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security                        [25min]
      (Malisa Vucinic)
      goal: resolution of WGLC comments

 Unchartered items, time permitting

    * draft-tiloca-6tisch-robust-scheduling                     [15min]
      (Simon Duquennoy)
      goal: gathering WG interest and feedback

    * status of the 6lo fragmentation design team (Thomas)       [5min]

    * AOB                                                          [QS]

 Total scheduled time                                        105/120min
```

Volunteers
==========

* notetaker 1: **Dominique Barthel**
* notetaker 2: **Georgios Papadopoulos**
* Jabber scribe: **Malisa Vucinic**

Action items
============

* editors of MSF (**Tengfei**) and minimal-security (**Malisa**) to read this
doc and make sure it represents their draft well. * **Pascal** to merge
terminology draft into architecture. Keep standards-track. * **Thomas** to
shepherd architecture draft. * **Tengfei** to raise suggestions found with MSF
on the ML, ensure get into MSF. * **Pascal** to organize an interim about MSF.
* **Malisa** to discuss final changes to the minimal-security draft (no netid
configuration of the JRC, configuration of the cap) on the ML * **Chairs** to
open 1-week WGLC on changes in -09.

Summary
=======

(This summary is also posted in the INT area wiki,
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/int/wiki/IETF103)

During IETF103, the 6TiSCH WG has 1 WG meeting and 2 side meetings.

The WG meeting covered 5 drafts:

* `draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture` is almost ready. Pascal pushed -16 before
the meeting. Pascal will merge `draft-ietf-6tisch-terminology` into
`draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture` and publish -17. WGLC will be called and
authors of the key 6TiSCH draft will be asked to review. * `rfc8480` was
published. * `draft-ietf-6tisch-msf` was covered through 3 presentations: an
intro and two "lessons learnt" presentations by 2 implementors (one by
simulation using the 6TiSCH simulator, one by experimentation using OpenWSN).
Performance is very good and matches the expectations, some lessons learnt
already captured in Appendix E of `draft-ietf-6tisch-msf`. Authors will update
the document based on these lessons learnt and ensure with implementors that
all lessons learnt have been captured. * `draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security`
is almost ready. It received 7 reviews during the last WGLC, all of which have
been integrated, and which reviewers approve. Two final changes are still
needed. Editor will discuss those on the ML, integrate them into a new version
of the draft if consensus. Chairs will then open a 1-week WGLC only on those
changes. * `draft-tiloca-6tisch-robust-scheduling` is new out-of-charter work
which proposes a "cell shuffling" solution to prevent a selective jamming
attack. The presentation was well received, the author are asked to provide
more arguments about the importance of such attack.

The first side meeting was bar BoF "Predictable and Available Wireless",
organized by Pascal Thubert, in which we discusses the opportunity to apply
6TiSCH to other physical layers, in particular 802.11 WiFi. Discussions are
continuing on a new mailing list https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw.

The second side meeting was called to discuss EDHOC
(draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe) and was attended by Jim Schaad (ace co-chair),
Roman Danyliw (ace and secdispatch co-chair), Goran Selander, Francesca
Palombini (EDHOC authors), Malisa Vucinic (6TiSCH security), Pascal Thubert and
Thomas Watteyne (6TiSCH co-chairs). It was agreed that
draft-selander-ace-cose-ecdhe would go through the secdispatch process to find
the right home for it. The 6TiSCH WG agreed to produce a requirements document
in end-of-year, and present that to a secdispatch interim meeting which will be
held in January 2019.

Minutes
=======

* [16.11, expected 16.10] Meeting starts
* [16.11, expected 16.10] Intro and Status (chairs) [10min]
    * Note Well, notetakers, jabber scribe, blue sheets.
    * security slides just added to the repo.
    * **Thomas** goes through agenda. Any suggestions fro change? none heard,
    agenda adopted. * **Pascal** gives the updates from IETF 102 meeting, on
    RFC8480, RFC8505 * ODVA looking at 6TiSCH for their low data rate Common
    Industrial Protocol * Thread looking at expanding from home to building
    automation. * There is a discussion and thoughts whether Thread could be
    converged with 6TiSCH * related work done in other WGs: 6lo, ROLL, CoRE.
* [16.21, expected 16.20] draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture (**Pascal Thubert**)
[10min]
    * kept up-to-date during the work at 6TiSCH. Question to publish it now
    that the work is completing. * structured into two big sections: high level
    architectue and finer details of 6TiSCH components * version 16 is
    published * **Pascal** proposes to go for WGLC for this draft, so that we
    do MSF now and then security. * **Thomas** suggest to wait for MSF and
    minimal security? * **Pascal** this one is ready, why wait? We know enough
    of MSF and minimal security for the purpose of this architecture document.
    * **Georgios** if new work is started after this is published, how will it
    get integrated? * **Pascal** this "story" is complete, we can close this
    document. If we start a new story later, we'll write about it. > **Action
    item**: editors of MSF (**Tengfei**) and minimal-security (**Malisa**) to
    read this doc and make sure it represents their draft well. * **Thomas**
    what about terminology? Do we push it together with this one? * **Pascal**
    yes, we'll publish terminology at the same time. * **Suresh**: many
    documents. Could we put terminology is this arch draft? Would this make
    sense? * **Pascal** This archi is very similar to the one from detnet, this
    document should in the standard track (Pascal changed it to standard track
    already) * **Suresh** is fine if stays standards track. * **Suresh** will
    you shepherd this doc, Thomas? * **Thomas** yes. * **Thomas** both docs are
    wrappers, one would read them both at the same time. > **Action item**:
    **Pascal** to merge terminology draft into architecture. Keep
    standards-track. * **Pascal** Thomas is on the author list. Cannot be
    shepherd. * **Suresh** Thomas is not an editor, I don't have an issue with
    Thomas being the shepherd. > **Action item**: **Thomas** to shepherd
    architecture draft.
* [16.32, expected 16.30] rfc8480 (**Xavi Vilajosana**, remotely) [5min]
    * was published as RFC8480 on 5-Nov-2018.
    * Minor changes from the previous version.
    * Important clarification comment in Section 3.4.7 (see the details in
    slide 2) > No further questions from the room.
* [16.35, expected 16.35] draft-ietf-6tisch-msf, intro update (**Simon
Duquennoy**, remotely) [5min]
    * Simon is presenting the updates of this draft since IETF 102. No new
    content but fixing issues. * Many of the issues were raised from
    implementation by Yatch and Tengfei. * MSF is adopted as a WG document *
    **Thomas**: please detail what you need by DoS attach by autonomous cells
    and joining. * **Simon**: attacker can jam join cells. * **Thomas**: damage
    stays at the pledge, does not propagate into the network. * **Yatch**:
    issue is JP fills up its schedule with cells of the pledge. * **Malisa**: a
    no-brainer solution would be to have downlink traffic go in the shared
    cell. * **Malisa**: There are the statefull and stateless options to join
    the network * **Thomas**: continue discussion on the ML
* [16.44, expected 16.40] draft-ietf-6tisch-msf, simulation campaign
(**Yasuyuki Tanaka**, remotely) [15min]
    * Yasuyuki is preseting the updates of the 6TiSCH simulator
    * version 1.1.6 was released yesterday.
    * The purpose of the simulator is to get quick evaluation of the new ideas,
    before going to the experimental evaluation. * The simulator can be run
    over a computer cluster that allows faster evaluation. * simulator can use
    a connectivity trace acquired from a real environment. * The simulator
    shows very promising performance, since it was evaluated with OpenWSN, and
    they show similar results * **Yatch** details the lessons learned from the
    MSF draft. * **Thomas**: are you saying that with MSF-01, addition of
    dedicated cells is too slow? * **Yatch**: yes, due to collisions of the
    autonomous cells. Even in some cases, dedicated cell is not added at all? *
    **Thomas**: is this a consequence of the backoff? * **Yatch**: yes. *
    **Thomas**: the traffic is periodic or bursty? * **Yatch**: it is periodic
    * **Yatch**: frame pending bit not well described in IEEE802.15.4 standard,
    not sure our implementation is correct. * **Tero Kevinen**: action item in
    next week's IEEE meeting to clarify * **Lijo Thomas**: * **Yichoan**: can
    you detail connectivity traces from real deployment? * **Thomas**: runs
    sequence (RSSI, etc.) from database collected in real deployment, fixed
    topologies. * **Thomas**: Yatch, is Appendix E of the MSF-01 complete? *
    **Yatch**: yes
* [17.03, expected 16.55] draft-ietf-6tisch-msf, experimental campaign
(**Tengfei Chang**, remoteremotely) [15min]
    * Presents the experimental evaluation of MSF over OpenTestbed that is
    deployed in the Inria-Paris office buildings * Explains how the testbed
    works, the API, architecture, connectivity etc. * Presents the 6TiSCH
    implementation over OpenWSN, and then the OpenVisualizer option * The
    experimental results shows average PDR 99.14% with 3 number of
    retransmissions. One node responsible for most losses, needs investigation.
    * The topology comes with 38 nodes, with max 4 hops? * **Georges** are all
    nodes sources, even those which relay mesages? what kind of traffic? What
    was the slotframe size? * **Tengfei**: all nodes generate data. 37 data
    sources. 1 packet/min. Keep-alive frames on top of that (every 30 s if no
    other packet). Slotframe is 101 timeslots long. * Proposals from Tengfei:
    Only reserve autonomous cell to parent, Bring back the one managed Tx cell
    in additional to autonomous cell, Only send DIO when one managed Tx cell is
    installed * **Thomas**: does Appendix E contain all recommendations you're
    making or does it need additions? * **Tengfei**: some are not htere *
    **Thomas**: raise them on the ML so that they find their way into the MSF.
    > **Action item**: **Tengfei** to raise suggestions found with MSF on the
    ML, ensure get into MSF. * **Simon**: agree that maybe currently too much
    resource, could be allocated on demand * **Thomas**: what is the difference
    between current situation and your proposal, Simon? * **Simon**: no
    difference on the air. Only internal. * **Pascal**: lets make it to mailing
    list * **Thomas**: have you tried to consolidate your findings? Tengfei, do
    you find the same findings that Yatch does? * **Pascal**: let's have an
    interim dedicated to MSF > **Action item**: **Pascal** to organize an
    interim about MSF. * Questions from Jabber:  Installing TX to RPL neighbors
    (RPL parents)
* [17.27, expected 17.10] draft-ietf-6tisch-minimal-security (**Malisa
Vucinic**) [25min]
    * updates of the minimal security draft.
    * WGLC before Montreal, 2 versions published since.
    * will present major issues here.
    * stateless proxy: work outsourced to CoRE. New CoAP option for extended
    token. Now stateless JP operation. * Second issue: Use of confirmable CoAP
    message for Join Request, retransmission handled by CoAP * Third: bandwidth
    cap. CoAP has a congestion control mechanism. All is in RFC7252. *
    **Pascal**: we need to see new ideas (no netid configuration of the JRC,
    configuration of the cap) would like to see this commented on the ML. >
    **Action item**: **Malisa** to discuss final changes to the
    minimal-security draft (no netid configuration of the JRC, configuration of
    the cap) on the ML * **Pascal**: with RPL, could get info about saturation
    of the Root, the available in DODAG through DIO packet * new "Error" CBOR
    structure to carry error code of previous request that failed. * when
    failure of JRC, new JRC that takes over could reuse nonce. Proposed
    resolution * sixth issue: blacklist parameter to reject pledges that keep
    sending requests. * seventh issue: Link_Layer_Key that supports all modes
    of 15.4 technology * **Malisa**: Tero could you check the answer to issue
    7? * **Tero**: already dont, OK. * **Malisa**: do we need another WGLC? *
    **Thomas**: received lots of comments. Write on the ML the intended
    changes, discuss them. Then short WGLC. * **Suresh**: agrees with Thomas.
    Can also open new LC on part of the doc. > **Action item**: **Chairs** to
    open 1-week WGLC on changes in -09. * OSCORE blocking anyway for the
    moment. * **Suresh**: don't block this document because of OSCORE. *
    **Thomas**: about EDHOC, will talk with ACE chairs as we finish this
    meeting (meeting scheduling conflict)
* [17.53, expected 17.35] draft-tiloca-6tisch-robust-scheduling (**Simon
Duquennoy**, remote) [15min]
    * new work. Adversary could easily learn pattern of victim node and run
    selective jamming (to save energy or be less detectable). * Simon goes
    through attack algorithm and example. * Proposal to prevent the attack by
    construction. * uses a secret to permutate timeslot utiliszation pattern
    and channelOffset pattern. * **Yichoan**: this attack is targeting a single
    node. Attacker would target full network. * **Simon**: both cases exist. *
    **Yichoan**: why not full jamming? * **Simon**: to be un-noticed. *
    **Pascal**: bring this discussion to the mailing list. * **Simon**: will
    need to update this draft to reflect new version of minimal security. *
    feedback from the WG? Interest in this? * **Thomas**: it's a neat little
    trick, but is it a real attack? At bit more convinced after the discussion,
    as it could be an attack against a single node. * **Tero**: How can a
    joining node join if the cells to contact the JP continuously changes? *
    **Simon**: we do not shuffle slotframe.
* [18.07, expected 18.09] AOB
    * no other business raised
* [18.08, expected 18.10] Meeting ends