Minutes IETF106: hrpc
minutes-106-hrpc-00

# Welcome and introduction (5 minutes)

        Scribe, Note takers
        Agenda Review
        Research Group status
        hrpc.io
        https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-hrpc-hrpc-welcome

# Talk: Jed Crandall, Arizona State University (30 minutes)

        Borders and Gateways: Measuring and Analyzing National AS Chokepoints:
        https://forrest.biodesign.asu.edu/data/publications/2019-compass-chokepoints.pdf
        Avri: Iran shutdown, only 5% of traffic getting out. How does that
        relate to your research?
                Jed: Looked at OONI, etc.
                        Nalini: country that I'm familiar with, the govt called
                        ISPs and asked them to shutdown specific regions. So
                        within the country, not externally.
                                Jed: we looked at national choke points. But
                                interesting to look at countries within e.g.
                                India, Brazil, Germany. Two separate questions
                                - not the one we looked at though
                        John Brewer: IX service proliferation. ASN inside of a
                        restrictive country peering with adjacent country.
                                Jed: Hard to get data, data over time of the
                                actual physical infra cutoffs
                        Stephen F: in an increasingly encrypted world, for e.g.
                        with ESNI, how would your stats evolve?
                                Jed: it's hard. as long as a govt can tell that
                                you're using a VPN they can shut you off.
                                Sometimes VPNs only work because the VPN shares
                                data.
                        Joe Hall: so many other things that powerful censors
                        do, have you considered increase scope beyond
                        chokepoints?
                                Jed: saw another paper: who controls all the
                                paths for DNS? complementary work, check out
                                everything by Roya Ensafi (former student)

# Talk: John Mattsson, Ericsson (30 minutes)

        5G Security, false base stations and IMSI catchers, and the great SIM
        heist and the need for PFS Bernie: SUPI shared with roaming network. Is
        that a good idea? If hacked?
                John: nothing is perfect! The change from 4G to 5G is that the
                phone needs to be physically there
                        Mohit: Using TLS 1.3 instead of DIAMETER is a big
                        upgrade. Cert distribution?
                                John: cert dist is out of scope. On going study
                                of how to make it more deterministic.
                        Eliot Lear: How will this interact with what govts need
                        to do to get around false base station
                                John: different actors here.
                        (name?): legal interception in different countries?
                                John: should be authorized, should be logged.
                                won't change much.
                        Gurshabad Grover: encryption of perm identifier, is
                        that left to the operator?
                                John: GSMA has said that it is highly
                                recommended to turn it on, not turned on in the
                                very first deployments GG: is this detectable
                                by the client? John: no, not to end-user. GG:
                                encryption of perm id between transit networks?
                                John: transit network cannot see handshake, but
                                not sure about afterwards
                        Nalini: if I'm a restrictive govt, if I don't have
                        visibility through this, then I'll go through other
                        means. Hack into base stations?
                                John: v hard to get into base stations.
                                Probably possible tho.
                        Mohit: if I'm roaming in Singapore, will there be hops
                        in between?
                                John: probably will be yes

# Updates: Research group drafts (15 minutes each)

        draft-irtf-hrpc-association, Joe Hall and Stéphane Couture

                                Jeffrey Yasskin: would appreciate discussion
                                about parental and enterprise filtering with
                                association Melinda: guidance is good to get in
                                the document. Disagree with Eliot, IETF
                                protocols are used to sometimes disconnect
                                people Eliot: difference between platforms and
                                protocols would be a good discussion to have
                                Stephane: meeting for mid-december could be
                                with ex-author


                        draft-irtf-hrpc-political, Niels ten Oever
                                Eliot:
                                Niels: For me, the author/editor of the
                                document, it would be great to have guidance
                                from the shepherd what we have agreement on,
                                either approaches and/or arguments, and what
                                needs improvement. Because sometimes it feels
                                like we're going back and forth. Could we
                                perhaps make a shepherd issue list (maybe taken
                                from this presentation?) and seek to address
                                the issues one by one? Else I am afraid we will
                                continue having great discussions, but maybe
                                not end up with a great final document...
                                Colin: doesn't have to be consensus, just have
                                to be clear whose view it is

        draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines, Gurshabad Grover
                Mallory: tease out conflicts in the draft
                                        Gurshabad: the doc is stated in terms
                                        of questions, which makes it hard to
                                        talk about conflict Mallory: because it
                                        is guidelines, you can help people make
                                        difficult decisions. Different section
                                        on sticky issues? Gurshabad: thinking
                                        about different draft

Avri: why do we do like the IETF does? Let us know if you want to publish an
article.