Minutes IETF108: alto
minutes-108-alto-02

IETF 108, Virtual Meeting
ALTO WG, Mon Jul 27, 2020 14:10 - 15:50

Session recording: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0VGbj8IGxzw

Summary
-------
WG Agenda items:
- cost-calendar, SSE in RFC editor queue.
- CDNI passed WGLC, need to move out of the WG.
- unified-props in WGLC.
- performance-metrics coming up for WGLC after revision.
- path-vector should start WGLC.

Re-charter discussion:
Remaining time was devoted to recharter discussions.  Many slides (10 - 16)
were presented to demonstrate the myriad ways in which ALTO is being
used in today's networks.  This left about 10 minutes for general discussion
on re-chartering.  General consensus on re-chartering seems to be that
the WG should re-charter 3-5 items, and instead of waiting for the next
IETF, a virtual interim should be set up to make progress towards the shape
of the 3-5 new charter items.  Richard Yang is leading the re-charter
discussion among the various authors of the slides that were presented.

Detailed meeting notes from Sabine and Qiao.
-------------------------------------------

14:10 - 14:15   5"   Chair slides
14:16 - 14:26  10"   Unified Properties, Sabine Randriamasy [1]
14:27 - 14:35   8"   Performance metrics, Richard Yang [2]
14:36 - 14:41   5"   CDNI, Jensen Zhang [3]
14:42 - 14:52  10"   Path vector, Kai Gao [4]
14:53 - 15:50  57"   Recharter discussion

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-alto-unified-props-new-12
[2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-alto-performance-metrics/
[3] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-alto-cdni-request-routing-alto-12
[4] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-alto-path-vector/

Slides
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/session/alto

----- ATTENDANCE: 40-43 people -------------------------------------------
Bluesheet:
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/bluesheets/bluesheets-108-alto-202007271410-00.txt
WG Chairs: Vijay K. Gurbani, Jan Seedorf Area Director: Martin Duke

Minute takers: Sabine Randriamasy, Qiao Xiang

----- ACRONYMS AND NAMES USED IN THE MINUTES
------------------------------------------- CX Chunshan Xiong DL Danny Lachos
JS Jan Seedorf JZ Jensen Zhang KG Kai Gao MD Martin Duke RY Richard Yang SR
Sabine Randriamasy VG Vijay Gurbani

APM  ALTO Performance Cost Metrics (WG draft)
CDNI Content Delivery Network Interconnection (CDNI) Request Routing: CDNI
                     Footprint and Capabilities Advertisement using ALTO (WG
                     draft)
PV  Path Vector (WG draft)
UP  Unified Properties for the ALTO protocol  (WG draft)
EG  e.g.

----- MINUTES -------------------------------------------

----- 0. Chair slides

Overall document status: cost calendar and SSE are in RFC editor. CDNI has
passed WGLC. Unified properties is in WGLC.

The focus of the WG is to finalize the charter items. Right now things are
going well. unified properties is in WGLC, and the chairs things path vector
and performance metrics are also ready for entering WGLC. However, due to their
dependency on unified properties, the chairs and the AD decide to hold them
from WGLC until unified properties passes WGLC.

In addition, this meeting will also discuss rechartering. The chairs are happy
to see the discussion and energy on the mailing list for rechartering items. VG
on the ALTO rechartering disc kick-off. The goal is to get a sense, as meant in
RFC2418, (see slide 7: does charter address relevant issues for the Internet
community? Are goals specific and achievable (in reasonable time) ? Does the WG
have th expertise ? ) Goal is not to take a re-charter decision during IETF 108
but open the discussion.  The proposed stuff should be achievable. So expertise
and energy is needed in WG

----- 1. Unified Properties:
Sabine introduces the key design update and text update in the draft. In
particualr, the definition of "defining information resource" is introduced.
The draft is in WGLC until August 7.

Vijay: the draft is fairly mature.
Jan: people are encouraged to read the document and if there is any question,
please send to auhors. SR adds 2 other drafts depend on UP so UP needs to be
clear.

----- 2. Performance Metrics:

Richard introduces the key design updates from v10 to v12 to address key
comments from 107 meeting: (1) how to choose types of metrics => ALTO provides
guidance, not measurement framework, and 4 types of guidance are chosen; (2)
how to conform to rfc6390 => define metrics in the document by defining metric
name, metric description, units of measurment and measurement points, and
provide context information for coarse-grained information such as routing
system information; (3) how to handle different statistics => provide complete
statistic by adding stddev and stdvar and (4) how to convey freshness => use
HTTP Last-Modified.

Vijay: after the minor edits suggested by the authors, this document is ready
for WGLC after UP.

----- 3. CDNI:

Jensen presents the key changes from v11 to v12: (1) generalize media types and
attribute names to make FCI a special case, and (2) update sections related to
unified properties, such as representing footprint objects as property map
entities and representing CDNI capabilities as property map entiy properties.

Vijay: this document also depends on unified properties.
No questions so this draft will move ahead.

----- 4. Path vector:

Kai presents the updates and status of this draft. This draft is waiting to
start WGLC, depending on unified properties. Key updates in v11 includes text
updates on the motivation example of flow scheduling, the discussion on
ephemeral ANE and persistent ANE, and to be in sync with the unified properties
draft. The presented design updates now support non-ephemeral ANEs, as it was
the case before, and extend the application scope initially restricted to flow
scheduling, to paths including persistent ANEs.

Vijay: PV is a major deliverable of the first recharter, and should start WGLC
after or in parallel (TBD) with unified properties. If it is ready, the chairs
will issue a WGLC.

----- Recharter discussion:
- Slides: Overview
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-alto-alto-re-charter-overview-00

Richard presents the recharter overview slides. The current ALTO high-level
goals is to provide network information to application in an abstraction that
simplify complex network information. Its bigger context is network-application
integration. The current ALTO framework and its deployment is reviewed.

Following the guidances of AD (Martin), i.e., relevance, review and
feasibility, the discussion on recharter is orgainzed based on use cases
(cellular, mEC, huge data, automation, interdomain, ALTO extension) and
structure (abstractions, transport services, backend and server-to-server). A
total of 16 1-page presentations are prepared, but only 7 are presented due to
the time.

- Slides: 1Slider for proposed extensions
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/slides/slides-108-alto-one-slide-alto-extensions-for-recharter-discussion-03

The 7 presented ones are:

(1) (Tencent and China Mobile) MoWIE: network information exposure framework
for cellular networks (e.g., ABR for cloud gaming, video QoE prediction, and
TCP perform optimization); (2) (Telefonica) Using ALTO to determine service
edge; (3) (T-Mobile) ETSI ZSM use case (4) (Tsinghua U and Shenzhen U): Deliver
functions to edge over ALTO;
    Richard comments that CDNI is a good starting point for this item.
(5) (ESNet, Caltech, CERN): ALTO extensions for flexible resource information
and interaction models are needed to support huge data in the SENSE project;
(6) (Telefonica) ALTO extension to support BGP communities (7) (UNICAMP)
Multidomain ALTO servcies (12) (Tencent / China Mobile) In-band and out-of-band
network infrmation exposure (16) (T-Mobile) ALTO automation extension

The 9 unpresented ones are:
(8) (Tongji U/Sichuan U) Predictive throughput for TCP reactive flows
(9) (Tongji U) Flow-based network information query
(10) (Nokia) ALTO services extension supporting cost context
(11) (Yale) Generic query language extension for ALTO
(13) (Yale) ALTO transport extension supporting HTTP/2
(14) (Tongji U) ALTO transport extension with multipart
(15) (Telefonica) Automatic derivation of ALTO information from southbound

--- Discussion:

Vijay: generic query extension seems interesting.
Andre Bondi (chat channel): I think it would be useful to describe how metrics
tie back to use cases and how they inform us about network usage and use case
impact.

Vijay said we should open-up the floor to other ideas. Future meeting should be
purely on re chartering. Martin Duke objected that we cannot take 16 drafts as
milestones. Vijay/Jan/Martin agree on limiting to 3-5 re-chartering items.

Vijay/Jan: Instead of waiting for next IETF, we need an interim meeting to tie
down 3-5 deliverables?

Lyle Bertz: Is this correct? 1. narrow down work (combine by themes) 2. try to
recharter prior to the next IETF meeting.

Martin: The next deliverable is a draft charter, which requires some downsize
select and consensus gathering.

Vijay and other attendants agree an interim meeting would be helpful .