Minutes IETF117: madinas: Mon 22:30
minutes-117-madinas-202307242230-00

IETF 117 MADINAS WG Agenda

MAC Address Device Identification for Network and Application Services

Monday, July 24, 2023

15:30 - 17:00 Monday Session III Golden Gate 7-8

• Welcome, Agenda Review and Status Update (WG Chairs)

    Reviewed the agenda, no comments
  

• MAC Address Randomization current state-of-affairs (Presenter Carlos
  J. Bernardos)

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-madinas-mac-address-randomization/
    Daniel Borges: Asked if they tested macOS.
    Carlos: Clarfied that they focused on mobile OS so no.
    Juan-Carlos Zuniga: mentions that these documents are just a snapshot of the implementation.
    Warren Kumari: This document is stable, should we have a call for adoption.
  
    Took a poll for last working group call which 21 raised hands, an 3 non-raised hands.
  

• Use cases and Problem statement (Presenter Jerome Henry)

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-madinas-use-cases/
    Juan-Carlos Zuniga: The working group hasn't considered which of these solutions 
    might be helpful.  Need to discuss DHCPv4/v6 and SLAAC best practices.
    Erik Vyncke: Draft seems to be heavy on wireless and lighter on DHCP, BGP
    and other IETF protocols.
    Jerome Henry: Agrees draft can improve with more then wireless information.
  

• Status of IEEE 802.11 (Presenter Mark Hamilton)

    Juan-Carlos Zuniga: Suggest discussion happen in the open discussion part of the agenda.
  

• WBA OpenRoaming Wireless Federation (Presenter Bruno Tomas)

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomas-openroaming/
    Daniel Borges: Thinks using OpenRoaming at the IETF would be a successful experiment.
    Erik Vyncke: IETF discussed using OpenRoaming for IETf-117, but the IESG decided not too.
    Juan-Carlos Zuniga: Wasn't clear if the IESG understood the purpose of the experiment.
  

• Experimental results from OpenRoaming tests (Presenter Warren
  Kumari)

    Warren Kumari: CUI was the same on both the iPhone and iPad.
    Alan DeKok: CUI should be different per session, it's a bad implementation decision.
    Alan DeKok: This probably a failure of the documentation.
    Clemens Schrimpe: Do you have any results for Apple Watch?
    Warren Kumari: No, i can look into this a later date.
    Daniel Borges: Were the experiments with iOS 16?
    Warren Kumari: Yes
    Daniel Borges: Where do we fix the CUI problem? Radius/OpenRoaming?
    Warren Kumari: We used the radius proxy, and it's send the Identifier.
    Mark Grayson: OpenRoaming says CUI should be when privacy set.
    Alan DeKok: RFC 4372, says CUI should be temporary long enough to be useful. This should be clarified in the OpenRoaming document.
    Warren Kumari: It may change over time, weeks or months.
    Juan-Carlos Zuniga: Happy with the issues uncovered with this experiment, it's what we wanted trying to run it on IETF network but at a bigger scale, with more implementations, more IDPs, etc.
    Joe Clarke: Likes Alan's comment about fixing this. Looking into how to add different identfications. 
    Warren Kumari: Noticed the user ids might be tied to SIM numbers.
    Mark Grayson: A Hash will be used so this shouldn't be a problem.
    Clemens Schrimpe: How do we think about verifying people are using the standard.
    Alam DeKok: Specifications need to written to clarify what the intention is an how to implement it.
    Daniel Borges: Where other IDPs used in this experiment?
    Warren Kumari: We could create test content for verifying different IDPs.
    Daniel Borges: Who is doing the testing?  OpenRoaming?
    Bruno Tomas: WBA has legal contracts in place to resolve issues.  PKI allows for removing bad actors in case there are bad practices or abuses.
    Mark Grayson: According to the legal terms in WBA agreements, PII can be used for troubleshooting, but it can't be explioted.
    Erik Vyncke: Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion.
  

• Next Steps (WG Chairs w/AD Support)

    Juan-Carlos Zuniga: Looking for a Iterim Meeting to continue this discussion in about a month.  Watch the list for more information.