Minutes for RMCAT at IETF-94
minutes-94-rmcat-3

Meeting Minutes RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques (rmcat) WG
Title Minutes for RMCAT at IETF-94
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Last updated 2015-11-19

Meeting Minutes
minutes-94-rmcat

   RMCAT SESSION I:  Evaluation and Interfaces

Monday, Nov 2, Afternoon session II 15:20-16:50

Note takers:
Coline Perkins
Maxim Proshin
Alan Ford

 ## Chairs presentation

# draft-ietf-rmcat-wireless-tests updates:
draft-fu-rmcat-wifi-test-case updates to be merged into
draft-ietf-rmcat-wireless-tests. Zahed plans to submit the merged draft this
week

# draft-zhu-rmcat-video-traffic-source-02 Updates:
Varun: what is holding up the traffic source draft?
Mirja: Did not see an update, and authors didn't request WG adoption
Karen: presentation on Friday, and expect an adoption call then

# draft-singh-rmcat-adaptive-fec-02 Updates:
Varun: unclear how to proceed with draft-singh-rmcat-adaptive-fec
Mirja: Varun should chase people up

# draft-singh-rmcat-cc-app-interactions Updates:
Varun: expects to have draft-singh-rmcat-cc-app-interactions updated
this week. Will have Stefan Holmer as co-author

# draft-ietf-rmcat-eval-criteria-04:
Varun: we put some text this week earlier together with Stefan and hopefully it
will be ready this week. The document needs some updates since Dallas. Short
TCP model added (as agreed in Prague).  I'm working closely with Stefan, will
add Stefan as co-author, to add Google’s jitter model. More metrics to be added
as people request them (no feedback received yet).

draft-zhu-rmcat-video-traffic-source-02 and draft-ietf-rmcat-eval-criteria-04:

Mirja: you are still going to keep those two documents separated, right?
Varun: I think that reasonable way forward, but on the other hand it is
applicable here so maybe there is no need to separate Mirja: I think the video
sequences can be useful in general Varun: yes, it is ok to try to separate

Mirja: What about the selection of video sequences for the trace-based video
modelling. Such information should go into the evaluation draft ? Zahed: that
needs a separate discussion I guess.  We need to select the sequences that we
should really use. Varun: moving it from test to criteria is a sensible and
should not be controversial Zahed: just moving that [what is that?] (text is
not a problem) Varun : there is another wg (netvc) that works on the similar
problem, maybe we should figure it out and join the work or provide comments
Karen:  do you ask for some support or you want to do it personally. Varun: I
don't do it personally, but I would appreciate if someone follows it or maybe
I'll do it Mirja: any additional contribution from Stefan ? Stefan: yep, we
will also add

# Milestones:
Mirja: one new milestone (adopt SBD and Coupled CC) has been met since last
IETF. The milestone on coupled CC and SBD has been corrected to refer to
experimental publication. A bunch of milestones are coming up very soon Karen:
just to emphasize that if we want to meet deadlines, we need to review and put
some pressure to improve them before the next IETF. There is the possibility to
have WGLC go out on the list before the next IETF.

# Reviews of -rmcat-cc-codec-interactions and -rmcat-eval-test:

draft-ietf-rmcat-cc-codec-interactions-01
Karen: the next goal is to provide the document to rtcweb for comments
We are looking for names to review it and also it would be good to receive
commitments right now. 22 or 29 January?

Agreed with deadline for review comments January 29 2016:
 - Stefan Holmer
 - Bo Burman
 - Michael Ramalho
 - Randell Jesup

 draft-ietf-rmcat-eval-test-02

 Agreed with deadline for review comments January 29 2016:
 - Safiqul Islam (with a special eye on test cases for Coupled Congestion
 control) - Stefan Holmer - Randell Jesup

# AOB:

RMCAT Fridays meeting has conflict with perc, netvc wgs. Should be avoided next
time.

 ## Updates on RMCAT test cases
draft-ietf-rmcat-eval-test-02 and draft-ietf-rmcat-wireless-tests-00, Zahed
Sarker

Varun: does the draft need to give more detail on how the UDP packets are
generated? Packet spacing, size, etc., to meet a particular bit rate, since
there are multiple ways of meeting a bitrate, that have different overheads and
trade-offs. Zahed: not discussed yet. ACTION Varun: eval criteria draft needs
to clarify background UDP traffic behaviour (packet spacing, rate, etc.)

Wireless tests:

Has anyone implemented the Wi-Fi test cases?
[a couple of "yes" including Stefan]

Mirja: for the basic test cases, we picked a subset that are mandatory for
candidates to test against, left some optional. Do we also need to do this for
WiFi? Zahed: yes, think so

Mirja: there were issues with the LTE simulations, since not everyone has the
Ericsson simulator. Zahed: have clarified how to use NS3 to do this, and what
parameters to test Varun: have they been compared? Zahed: not explicitly, but
seems clear that they will be different, since the two simulators vary in
propagation models, behaviour at edge of cells, etc. Varun: should we require
everyone test LTE using NS3, to allow comparison? Does this make sense, given
we know that the NS3 model is limited. Unclear. Delay discussion until other
people try to implement the wireless tests, to see if the differences become
important.

Michael: I remember that for the basic test cases we decided to split the
wireless out because the doc was long from the beginning. Should we do the same
for wireless test cases? Zahed: yes, it could be two parts: wifi test cases and
LTE test case, but we decided not to do this. Michael: but for LTE test cases
you don't have simulation results, right? Zahed: Has tried. Very hard to
implement in a physical testbed; possible in a simulator. Have updated the
draft with information about LENA (LTE) simulator Varun: I see differences
between simulation results since last time and in behavio (some speculation
about additional simulations). Zahed: Ericsson LTE simulator it is much more
complex. Michael: We should use test cases and say if it is safe or not Zahed:
if you want me to use my test cases to improve LENA, then my answer is that
LENA is good enough

Ken Carlberg: no discussion on potential oscillation when, e.g., dropping from
4G to 3G; should this sort of handover be in scope? Zahed: no, we don't
consider this Ken: doesn't discuss overload between GBR and non-GBR traffic,
and how towers deal with non-GBR traffic in this case? Zahed: can add this, but
thinks it's an extreme corner case, and not something we need to model

## RTP Extensions for Transport-wide Congestion Control
draft-holmer-rmcat-transport-wide-cc-extensions-01, Stefan Holmer

RTP Header extension:
Perkins: if we are to do this, suggest making the sequence number
longer, since we already have codecs for which the 16 bit seq num is too small
Stefan: good point.
Varun: how does this interact with existing send-timestamp?
Stefan: this arrival time can replace send-timestamp.
Varun: Also interesting to look at impact on MPRTP.

RTCP Message:
David Hayes: several things want to use PT 205? can use different FMT values
Varun: what SSRC is used here? It’s transport wide, but needs a sender SSRC
Colin: better to feedback on a per stream basis; can aggregate across the flows
to get transport-wide statistics Varun: let's work out what information is
needed, and work it out in avtext. Stefan: goal = feed back to sender arrival
time of each packet received Colin: have XR blocks that do this already!

Michael Ramalho: sympathetic to the desire to aggregate; unsure it works. What
is transport-wide in the world of middleboxes? e.g simulcasting to a switch
that sends to different targets? Stefan: we have a transport between two peers;
one peer may be a node in the cloud that terminates the session. It's between
these peers, not necessarily end to end.

Randell: how does transport-wide numbering works when different streams have
different DSCP values, and hence different congestion contexts?  Also could we
do this is just RTP header extensions? Stefan: thinks you want to include all
the streams in the estimate - need to run several instances of the
transport-wide cc in the flow. Separate "transports" for separate DSCP values
Mirja: how does this relate to coupled congestion control and shared bottleneck
detection? Zahed: doesn't get the dscp issue - isn't this the same as coupled
cc? Harald: sender should get the feedback, determine what packets it relates
to, and adapt the stream in response Colin: sure, but that's argument for
per-ssrc feedback Colin: we should do this on a per-stream basis, rather than
having people need to combine/uncombine. Should work on a per-SSRC basis. Plus
DSCP demux is not required since DSCP will be static per stream. The entire
adaptation seems to work per ssrc, but the feedback is all mixed up for the
transport Karen: notes that not all candidate algorithms operate at the sender,
unclear this works for all Stefen: but nada can be changed so these
calculations are done on the sender. Jörg Ott: is the run-length encoding
different to all the other RLEs we have in RTP? It should be, to reduce
complexity. Stefan: Not sure. We should make it the same. Varun: what state is
required at sender? Does the sender need to track the send times for the
transport sequence numbers across all the flows Stefan: need to know what time
every packet was sent. Marat Zhanikeev: rather than deltas, consider network
calculus, and maybe different representations?

Chairs: Does the wg feel that we should give the usage of a generic feedback
mechanism for sender side only RMCAT CC a try?

Zahed: scream looking into whether they can use generic feedback; needs to give
feedback on whether this works; requirements first Colin: wants to see work on
requirements first. What do all the candidates need? What is available in
existing mechanisms? Only after that, think about solutions Varun: again, wants
to see requirements

## Shared Bottleneck Detection
draft-ietf-rmcat-sbd-03, David Hayes

Colin: can this work with standard rtcp feedback (sr/rr)? No, needs extensions
Mirja: need to decide if we ship the algorithm as an experimental draft, or
expand the draft to include the packet formats. Decision discussed was not to
specify the feedback packet format in this draft, but possibly do this later
for standards track.

****

RMCAT SESSION II: Congestion Control Candidates

Friday, Nov 6, Friday Morning session I 9:00-11:30

Note taker:
Brian Trammell

## Intro & Wrap-Up Monday meeting

Chairs: At the RMCAT session on Monday and supported by emails since we have
the impression that the wg is ready to * Give usage of a common feedback
message for sender side only RMCAT CC's _a try_.

We should have a discussion to confirm this and we should agree on a way
forward. A proposed way forward can be :

*1* Requirements to be considered in each CC algs draft
*2* Analyse required feedback rates and timing as well as content
   and point to existing remedies and/or what new needed

Varun: Rate and timing does not automatically fall out of feedback (?). Up to
the receivers to decide what to do. Mechanisms already in place for minimum and
maximum rate. Karen: Mechanisms exist so they can negotiate feedback rate ?
Varun: Before we say generic feedback, question is what is content. We already
have XRBLOCKs. Karen: First, do we want something common and generic. Second,
do we already have that, or something new? Varun: Intuition, use things that
are there. These might be verbose. When we have more experience, e.g.
granularity, then we can compress a bit. Can speak from experience developing
after the fact, many XRBLOCKs already exist that have sufficient information.
Karen: Starting on analysis for generic feedback. Yes if you want to do that we
have a WG draft to make the analysis in. Do we want to do this now or have more
experience? Zahed: We can negotiate some parameters, we have a fraction of
bandwidth for feedback. Intervals, you can guess. Doable. Start with XRBLOCK,
ask what's missing. Which is the WG document? Karen:
ietf-rmcat-rtp-cc-feedback. Only question, do we want to start this work now?

Mirja: If you have your own feedback, receiver has to support it... Isn't it
valuable to make ? Zahed: I don't know if the receiver supports XRBLOCK. That
can't be the fallback. For all algs in RMCAT they fall back to RTCP report.
Randall (virtual): Try to get info back from proposed implementations on what
feedback their algorithms need, useful for shared feedback story. Might require
new messages, might not. Even if we can reuse XRBLOCK, unlikely that a client
not designed for XRBLOCK will use. Don't want to lock in too early on data
expected from client... maybe too late... Need to think about feedback stream
interaction with forward stream in the same direction. Xiaoqing: Many benefits
in a common receiver. Want to start with a common receiver... Mirja: Question
to speaker: Willing to revisited the decision and change the algo? Xiaoqing:
Assuming per packet feedback, Karen: making a description of the requirements
of this, making this in your document or somewhere else ? Xiaoqing: One list of
req for common receiver to early. Premature to make these requirements. Provide
specific spec for the feedback mechanism for the current decision and point to
different directions Mirja: Where to put the requirements? Xiaoqing: Three
candidates, each different flavor of feedback mechanism. Easier, to put up
detailed mechanisms of feedback, find out after what/how to merge Karen: Where
to put it? Speaker: (didn't get answer) Mirja: Results possible based on theory
or real testing feedback needed Xiaoqing: Done some studies on impact of
feedback, can share theoretical and practical results. Nothing concrete to
recommend. Brian T.: Generic observation about use of xr block. Go the common
feedback route, make sure that feedback is compatible with xr block. xr block
not sufficient to use here, having the metrics compatible with feedback.
Measurement agents can understand xr block and feedback. Zahed: We talk about
information we consider for feedback in the draft already. Mirja: Do you also
have information about how often you need the feedback? Zahed: In the document.
Scream started with per-packet feedback. Noticed problem with frequency of
per-packet feedback with rtcp. Generic treatment is a short-term solution,
what's the standardization benefit if we have one alg? Karen: There was not
assumption that there will be one algorithm. Zahed: Should we really clearly
say there will be more than one? Then this work is really important. Karen: We
don't know. Impression I get from this discussion, need to have each CC alg
explain the feedback and rate they need. Scream already does this. Mirja:
Sufficient to put this in the appendix. Zahed: Format of generic feedback
message should wait. Michael Ramallo: Also started per-packet, did something
different. Question is compressibility. If per-packet can be effectively
compressed, then everyone gets what they want. Stefan Holmer: Not all about
interaction between these algorithms. Even when we have standardized the algs,
they won't be final. Very active field, we need to not have a constrained
feedback format. Karen: That's a requirement for how we do it. Varun: We should
do something in this area. Summary? Karen: We now ask for all algorithm
proposals to summarize feedback requirements in their drafts. We won't
necessarily analyze this now. Mirja: We'll submit all algorithms as
experimental first without generic feedback. Generic feedback is a requirement
for proposed standard revisions.

## Update on Video Traffic Source Model for RMCAT Evaluation
draft-zhu-rmcat-video-traffic-source-02, Xiaoqing Zhu

Mirja: Integrated into ns-3?
Xiaoqing: Yes, codec is just C++ though
Mirja: Others integrating into own simulations? Just curious
Zahed: Yes. All results are based on trace-based models. Not doing statistical
models yet, plan to analyze. No idea when we'll implement. Mirja: Test cases
don't argue for one or the other. Stefan: We have some something similar,
simpler. Seems reasonable that we could integrate this code into simulations.

Mirja: Hum to support adoption

HUMMMMMMM

Mirja: Hum to not support adoption

SOUND OF PEOPLE TYPING BUT NO HUM

Mirja: Okay, clear support, will confirm adoption on the list.

## Coupled congestion control with GCC
draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-00, Safiqul Islam

Zahed: eval test cases don't talk about CCC. Will there be a variant of eval
test cases for multiple flows for CCC? Safiqul: We can make this a special case
of the test case, add a paragraph to say what changes for CCC (i.e., two rmcat
flows instead of one vs tcp) Zahed: Would be interesting to know for each test
case what the requirements are to exercise CCC. Mirja: On Monday we discussed
wireless test cases. Do you plan to look at those? Safiqul: Haven't decided
yet. Karen: Will you also test coupling between rmcat and other flows? Safiqul:
Started work recently on coupling data and media channels. Do we think it would
be a good idea to add this to the draft? Karen: This is a requirement for the
rmcat group. Safiqul: Once we start doing tests, we can come up with test cases
to test this kind of coupling and share with test case editors Zahed: That'd be
great

## Update on GCC
draft-ietf-rmcat-gcc-01, Stefan Holmer

Randall: Thought about removing the packet size term: big frames are all a
bunch of big packets followed by a smaller one. Might revisit this decision
with low bandwidth networks and streams where each frame fits into a packet.
Zahed: Agree with Randall's point Mirja: Work in progress or are you looking
for reviews...? Stefan: Makes sense to wait until we fix the loss-based
controller. Mirja: After you make changes, rerun the test cases.

## Updated evaluation results on NADA
draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-01, Xiaoqing Zhu

Zahed (q. on 5.1 variable cap): what video traffic model?
Xiaoqing: Perfect
Zahed: On ramp-up, need to think that the codec might not be perfect.
Randall (on AQM): no aqm entry in eval-criteria, we will need to work well with
it. thanks for doing these tests. (on 5.1 variable cap): reqt's mention
potential faster ramp-up, since quality of call at the beginning is important
to people. Want to make QBOUND variable. (...?) Xiaoqing: Very conservative on
ramping up if it sees queueing delay, threshold is 10ms. QBOUND not bound on
queue, it's just an aggressiveness parameter. Stefan: Maybe explain this is the
case in the draft. Stefan (on impact of parameter values): ETA of 2 means you
react mainly to changes in queueing delay? Xiaoqing: Yes. Stefan: This makes it
a bit more similar to gcc. Stefan: Have you evaluated how using queueing delay?
Xiaoqing: An earlier version of NADA used OWD to drive all interactions -- but
then feedback depends on path propagation delay, which is hard for rtt
fairness. Mirja: Thanks to Stefan for review. Zahed, have you reviewed? Zahed:
Yes. Just need to send the message. Mirja: How close are you to last call?
Xiaoqing: Wait for reviews. Many open issues are just things to be aware of.
Mirja: Option after next revision to go for WGLC. We don't have to wait for the
next meeting. Karen: Plans to test on the Internet? Xiaoqing: Safe to try out.
Haven't considered doing so though.

## Updates on SCReAM - An implementation experience
draft-ietf-rmcat-scream-cc-02,  Zahed Sarker

Stefan (on test case 5.1): this is a local queue?
Zahed: yes, red line.
Stefan: There's a bottleneck in the test case then.
Xiaoqing: Two clarifying questions. RTP queue above 500ms, net queue about
500ms, these are additive? Zahed: Not necessarily Xiaoqing: Would like to see
end-to-end delay. Zahed: Blue line is end-to-end delay. Xiaoqing: Then how does
the red line go over the blue one? What happens to a packet that experiences
500ms of RTP queueing? What happens at overshoot? If it arrives at the receiver
Zahed + Brian + Xiaoqing + Michael: A packet that enters the RTP queue at peak
delay also experiences the RTP peak queue, then hits the network queue
(time-shifted). Instantaneous end to end delay would be good to have here too.
Randall: on delay in codec: is this a delay in the codec's response to its
controls, or in the various feedback decision pathways? Zahed: This is the
first one -- calculate bit rate at input and output. Maybe we configured the
codec wrong. Randall: Many ways to configure. Documenting configuration useful.
This chart does not look right to me. Stefan: We have done this simulation too,
and we did not experience the same problems, so possibly configuration. Many of
the encoders running on mobiles don't have many knobs. May not give you what
you need. Zahed: That's the point we're trying to make. Mirja: Update is ready
for last call. Review volunteers: Xiaoqing, Stefan, Mo, and Varun Varun: Are
you seeing deployments of scream in the wild? Is it merged to master in
openwebrtc? Zahed: There's a flag. Mirja: Are you aware of users? Zahed: Hard
to tell. Varun, you have data? Varun: I assume it's GCC. Mirja: You can look at
feedback format Varun: We're not in path. Is scream on master? I'd like to try
it out. Zahed: On master as of last week. Mirja: How close to WGLC? Zahed:
We're ready. Should there be a deadline? Karen: We want reviews this year.

ACTION Reviewers: Xiaoqing, Stefan, Mo, and Varun
Document for review is present draft-ietf-rmcat-scream-cc-02.

Zahed: We'll submit a separate draft on feedback measures.
Mirja: You should re-add a bit of text about what information should be in the
feedback. There's no format fot the extension, just a list of fields. Varun:
Didn't we finish this discussion Mirja: Conclusion was that draft should say
what requirements are for feedback, description of content and timing. Looked
at the draft, there needs to be more text on this in the scream draft.

## Considerations for draft-singh-rmcat-cc-app-interactions
    No draft yet, Varun & Stefan

Karen: Do we have any idea of what statistics the controller provides?
Varun: Standardized from W3C. Target bitrate, estimated bitrate, etc.
Karen: It's a point for the algorithms, they need to instrument.
Varun: From a statistics PoV it's mainly performance metrics. In terms of the
configuration parameters. Karen: might have some overlap with the
codec-interactions draft. Needs to be addresssed as soon as there is a first
version of this draft. Mirja: slides are uploaded now, please provide feedback
on the list! Harald: There is some work on interfaces in webrtc and other WGs,
so it'd good to coordinate