Minutes interim-2022-cellar-08: Tue 21:00
minutes-interim-2022-cellar-08-202209272100-00

Meeting Minutes Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission (cellar) WG
Date and time 2022-09-27 19:00
Title Minutes interim-2022-cellar-08: Tue 21:00
State Active
Other versions markdown
Last updated 2022-09-27

minutes-interim-2022-cellar-08-202209272100-00

CELLAR -- DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting

| Date | Time | Local Times |
| :-: :-: :-
| 2022-09-27 | 21:00 Amsterdam | Time Converter |
| Note | Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam | |

Administrivia

INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2022-08

Note that we're now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes
here

MEETING INFO and WEB CONFERENCE:

info:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2022-cellar-08/session/cellar

https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=15d8336e-e68f-44e5-b837-6b6e5cba9b64

note that chat is now Zulip:
https://zulip.ietf.org/login/#narrow/stream/cellar

but is accessible via meetecho interface.

Shared HedgeDoc for notetaking

Now using the Datatracker assigned notepad at:
https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-cellar-08-cellar

  • Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you'll be able to
    edit/clarify/correct these notes, add your name to attendee lists,
    etc.

  • Please ask Michael or Spencer if you have questions.

2022 virtual interim meeting dates

Agenda Items

Note Well: https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/

Roll call

Attendees

  • Spencer Dawkins
  • Michael Richardson
  • Martijn van Beurden
  • Steve Lhomme
  • Jérôme Martinez
  • Michael Niedermayer

Regrets

  • Reto Kromer
  • Dave Rice

Upcoming In-person meeting

October 28, 1200UTC, The Hague.
details:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2022-cellar-11/session/cellar

https://www.digitalmeetsculture.net/article/no-time-to-wait-conference/

  • At a minimum, Spencer will be attending remotely
  • Michael is arriving on Thursday night
  • We will run this as a normal meeting, with the addition of a short
    description of the IETF and Cellar working group

Accept draft minutes from previous meeting (attached below)

  • Any objections? Please let us know on the mailing list.

    • not the thing attached, please go look at the mailing list.

  • Martijn read them and has no objections.

  • no objections, so the minutes are approved.

WG status update

Milestone review:

  • FLAC - did not make July 2022 milestone. What is realistic update
    for milestone?
    ** the document is pretty much ready. A few grammar issues, but
    otherwise, nothing.
    ** will review for consistency within this draft
    ** working up to WGLC - Spencer is volunteering to shepherd this
    document.

Matroska issues - Discussion of shepherd writeup from Michael on the call.

  • is there anything left to do before we get into AD and IESG reviews?

    ** a few bugs of a few elements, but might be for v5?
    ** mime-type -> mediatype.
    * normative vs informative references for codecs and tags drafts
    ** can make a player with raw video and raw audio.
    ** definitely can use the document without tags (definitely
    information)
    ** is BCP47 sufficient? So we don't need to refer to the
    underlying ISO document? Spencer votes "BCP 47 is sufficient"
    ** CIE 1931 document (from 1937) is also an issue - we need to
    contact CIE and ask about references, or perhaps just reference
    WikiPedia, which has the formula correctly
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_1931_color_space)
    ** We need to include these decisions in the shepherd write-up
    for Matroska
    ** Steve will merge for a new version by this coming weekend

FLAC issues - Discussion on the call

  • #138 and #158 were reviewed and solved.
    ** WGLC to start very soon.

FFV1 v4 issues - Discussion on the call

  • still a lot of work to finish this, still early stages.
  • ffv1, v3 is enough for most people, but many improvements, but what?
  • Can we do a short presentation at NTTW, on where we are with v4 now,
    and what might be missing?

AOB?

  • Next meeting is 2022-10-28, in-person!

Previous Minutes - CELLAR -- DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting

| Date | Time | Local Times |
| :-: :-: :-
| 2022-08-23 | 21:00 Amsterdam | Time Converter |
| Note | Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam | |

Administrivia

INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2022-07

Note that we're now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes
here

WEB CONFERENCE:

https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=8291e9a9-5e5d-4f43-928a-9f49e52df598

Shared HedgeDoc for notetaking

Now using the Datatracker assigned notepad at:
https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-cellar-07-cellar?view

  • Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you'll be able to
    edit/clarify/correct these notes, add your name to attendee lists,
    etc.

  • Please ask Michael or Spencer if you have questions.

2022 virtual interim meeting dates

Agenda Items

Note Well: https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/

Roll call

Attendees

  • Spencer Dawkins
  • Martijn van Beurden
  • Steve Lhomme
  • Reto Kromer
  • Michael Niedermayer

Regrets

  • Jérôme Martinez

Accept draft minutes from previous meeting (attached below)

  • Any objections? Please let us know on the mailing list.
  • No objections on the call.

WG status update

Milestone review:

  • FLAC - did not make July 2022 milestone. What is realistic update
    for milestone?
    ** We said at the June meeting that we could spend all of the
    August meeting on FLAC, if we needed to ...
Discussion on the call
  • NoTimeToWait 2022 announced as October 26-28, 2022. The venue is the
    The Hague.
  • Our AD has approved our October interim meeting to be colocated with
    NTTW, after some struggles with the datatracker, and Spencer may be
    the only working group participant who WON'T be there in person.

Matroska issues - Discussion of shepherd writeup from Michael - Part 1 and shepherd writeup from Michael - Part 2 on the call.

  • Michael is document shepherd. He has completed his review, and we
    will pass it on to AD for review when we have a draft version that
    addresses Michael's review comments.
  • We did have some questions for Michael, but Michael was not able to
    join the call before we adjourned.

FLAC issues - Discussion on the call

  • from our last call:

    • #138 and #158 need review.

  • #138 has been merged for uploaded draft

  • #158 - encapsulation specification on FLAC website is quite short -
    we do have a question about vorbis comment metadata blocks and
    order. Will it be a problem if the Matroska codecs document is
    referenced normatively? We don't think being encapsulated in
    Matroska is an indispensible part of FLAC. We can put anything
    critical in the FLAC specification itself. How to encapsulate MP4 is
    huge, and we really want to refer to an MP4 document, rather than
    cut-and-paste or try to summarize. We know what to change, in order
    to merge this one.
  • New question - section on development history that would describe
    FLAC software that will produce output that is not complant with the
    current spec because of non-forward-compatible changes to FLAC. We
    have done this with Matroska, and think it would be fine, especially
    as an informative appendix, especially for archival formats.
  • New question - we have about 60 FLAC test files in Github, and we do
    have some aspects of FLAC that are not well supported. What do we do
    with that information? We have the same problem with some parts of
    Matroska. We note that this information will not age well. Spencer
    suggested that one approach is the one used in
    https://github.com/ietf-wg-mops/draft-ietf-mops-streaming-opcons,
    with an informative reference to a "living document" in GitHub. This
    might also be useful for implementation guidance (also important,
    also may not age well)

FFV1 v4 issues - Discussion on the call

  • We did chat a bit about how to move text around so that it was
    easier to use diffs - Spencer suggested doing all the technical
    changes, submitting a revision, and then submitting a revision with
    ONLY block moves.

AOB?

  • Next meeting is 2022-09-27