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Minutes IETF 117 BOF coordination interim-2023-iesg-12 2023-06-01 14:00

Meeting Minutes Internet Engineering Steering Group (iesg) IETF
Date and time 2023-06-01 14:00
Title Minutes IETF 117 BOF coordination interim-2023-iesg-12 2023-06-01 14:00
State (None)
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Last updated 2024-02-23

IETF 117 BOF Coordination Calls
2023-06-01, 2023-06-15

Reported by: Amy Vezza, IETF Secretariat

Additional reference materials available at the datatracker

- Andrew Alston
- Roman Danyliw
- Dhruv Dhody
- Martin Duke
- Lars Eggert
- Jim Guichard
- Wes Hardaker
- Cullen Jennings
- Mallory Knodel
- Suresh Krishnan
- Murray Kucherawy
- Mirja Kuehlewind
- Warren Kumari
- Karen O'Donoghue
- Colin Perkins
- Zaheduzzaman Sarker
- John Scudder
- Amy Vezza
- Eric Vyncke (only at 2023-06-15 meeting)
- Robert Wilton
- Christopher Wood
- Paul Wouters
- Jiankang Yao


Erik Kline
Tommy Pauly
Francesca Palombini
Alvaro Retana
David Schinazi
Eric Vyncke
Qin Wu

1. Congestion Control Working Group (CCWG) TSV Area (Formerly CONGRESS)
   Area Director of Record: Zaheduzzaman Sarker

Zahed Sarker introduced the proposed working group and said the
external review for CCWG is in progress, and he expects it will be a
new working group by IETF 117. He wanted to make sure the group was
able to get an agenda session for IETF 117.

Lars Eggert asked if CCWG would change what TCPM is working on, as the
TCPM charter has a couple of paragraphs on congestion control.

Zahed said no, they may coordinate on a case by case basis, but CCWG
would not take any of the work TCPM is doing.

Martin Duke added that the chairs understand the possible overlap and
are communicating well. He said he may tweak the charter for TCPM to
make the scope of its work more clear.

Cullen Jennings asked where the Media Over QUIC would take changes to

Zahed said he didn't know where the current work on BBRv2 work is now,
but when it gets to the point of needing an IETF Working Group, CCWG
would be a good place for it to land.

Colin Perkins said that the ICCNRG, currently discussing BBRv2, will
still be available for research-based work, and the work can move to
CCWG when it gets more concrete.

The proposed CCWG working group was approved for a session request at 
IETF 117.

2. Detecting Unwanted Location Trackers (DULT) SEC Area
   Responsible Area Director: Roman Danyliw

Roman Danyliw introduced the proposed DULT BoF effort, and said they
have just begun discussing the proposal with the proponents. He said
he expects it to be a non-WG forming BoF to explore what they are
asking for. He was also unsure if the SEC Area was the right area for
the work. He said the proponents are from both Apple and Google, so
there are vendors interested in the problem.

Warren Kumari said he had requested the mailing list for the work so
there was a central place for discussion to happen, but the SEC or ART
Areas may be a better fit for the work.

Roman asked if the GEOPRIV work was related.

Lars Eggert said GEOPRIV was more in telephony in the RAI Area, and
overlapped with SEC Area a bit as well. He did not think GEOPRIV and
DULT were related. Lars also said that the IETF timeline could be a
deterrent, as publishing a document may take too much time for the
proponents. He suggested they think about using the QUIC model in
writing implementation documents that would be used until the RFC was

Roman agreed, but said he wasn't sure yet what they wanted. He said
they have a document which was a starting point.

Warren said he thought they wanted an open discussion with other
vendors in an open forum, such as the IETF.

Mallory Knodel asked if the IETF should be reaching out to other
vendors who might be interested.

Roman said that he thought that was a good idea.

Cullen Jennings said he thought the hard topic would be the threat
model for user's privacy. He said ART might be a better fit. He said we
also have to think about what the IETF would want. If the IETF tries
this and it fails, will the IETF be blamed for that? He thought
scoping the BoF and the work would need to be carefully done. He said
knowing the set of requirements and what it would take to build
something to fill that set of requirements.

Suresh Krishnan said there was no mention of what is wanted in the
current document, vs what is unwanted, and that needed to be defined
first. He thought they were making normative requirements to use on
Bluetooth, but is that possible with the current technology?

Lars said that having two interested vendors is a good indication
there was sufficient interest in having the BoF. He agreed that having
written requirements would be key to a successful meeting. He also
said an IAB Shepherd would be useful.

Chris Wood agreed with Cullen, that a requirements document would be
necessary. He said getting clarity on the reasonable threat model
would also help. He said he was willing to help shepherd the BoF.

Warren said the proponents have been generally responsive to
questions, and that this work could fit well in the IETF.

Roman and Chris will work with the BoF proponents to refine the BoF

The proposed DULT BoF was provisionally approved for IETF 117. On the 
June 15, 2023 IESG Teleconference, the IESG approved DULT as a BoF 
for IETF 117.

3. Network Inventory YANG (IVY) - OPS Area (Formerly NIMBY)
   Responsible Area Director: Rob Wilton

Rob Wilton introduced the proposed IVY working group and said this
would replace the proposed working group NIMBY, the charter for which
was approved for external review pending a name and acronym change.

The proposed IVY Working Group was approved for a session request for
IETF 117. The Secretariat reminded Rob there currently no session
request information in the tracker.

4. Key Transparency (KEYTRANS) - SEC Area
   Responsible Area Director: Roman Danyliw

Roman Danyliw introduced the proposed KEYTRANS Working Group. He said
the proposed working group was in progress, and he hoped KEYTRANS
would be a working group by IETF 117, but if not it would go forward
as a BoF. He said other working groups such as SCITT and MLS had been
involved in the chartering effort.

Lars Eggert agreed.

The proposed KEYTRANS Working Group was approved for a session request
for IETF 117. At the June 15, 2023 IESG Teleconference Roman said the 
KEYTRANS proposed working group will meet as a BoF at IETF 117 while 
the charter is being discussed.

5. Machine Learning for Audio Coding (MLCODEC) - ART Area
   Responsible Area Director: Murray Kucherawy

Murray Kucherawy introduced the proposed MLCODEC Working Group. He
said the charter is currently in internal review with the IAB and
IESG, and he expects this will be a working group before IETF 117, but
they wanted to make sure they could meet.

The proposed MLCODEC Working Group was approved for a session request
for IETF 117.


There was a short discussion on the proposed blog post on highlights
from IETF 116 that Mirja Kuehlewind wrote and expected to be posted on
the IETF blog soon.

Lars Eggert reported on an effort to create a centralized moderation
team that he circulated with four former IETF Chairs and was waiting
for comments.

Lars Eggert and Mirja Kuehlewind talked about bringing back tutorials
or an area overview for a specific area on Saturday or Sunday of a
future IETF meeting. There was a short discussion on logistics, and
Lars suggested the IAB and IESG should take some time at IETF 117 to
discuss it further.