IETF-IEEE 802 Coordination, 2025-07-26, Madrid

Attending:

Ann Krieger
Cindy Morgan
Clint Chaplin
Dave Halasz
Dhruv Dhody
Deb Cooley
Dorothy Stanley
Glenn Parsons
Gorry Fairhirst
Harry Bims
James Gilb
János Farkas
Jason Potterf
Jessy Rouyer
Johannes Specht
Jon Rosdahl
Juan Carlos Zuniga
Ketan Talaulikar
Mahesh Jethanandani
Mirja Kühlewind
Nader Zein
Orie Steele (remote)
Peter Yee
Robert Stacey
Roman Danyliw
Russ Housley
Scott Mansfield
Suresh Krishnan
Tim Godfrey
Tommy Pauly (remote)
Warren Kumari

1. Introductions

There was a brief round of introductions.

Russ Housley gave an overview of the IETF standards process.

Dorothy Stanley gave an overview of the IEEE 802 standards process.

2. Post-Quantum Cryptography: EAP method updates to support PQ mechanisms.

The 802.11 WG is starting to look at post-quantum enhancements. Since
802.11 relies extensively on use of IETF-defined EAP methods, this is an
area of common interest.

The TLS WG has adopted some Internet-Drafts that use PQC. So, this will
carry over to EAP-TLS for use with IEEE 802.1X.

Deb Cooley said that the TLS WG is in the process of adding post-quantum
algorithms to their protocols. They also have a draft on how to do
hybrid combining. The EMU WG also has a number of drafts adopted about
this.

Dorothy Stanley said that 802.11 relies on EAP and TLS, and it may be
worth looking at whether there are other specific EAP methods than need
to be made ready for post-quantum.

Glenn Parsons said that 802.1 uses asymmetric keys, so it would be
helpful to get an update from the IETF on that.

Russ Housley replied that the LAMPS WG recently sent
draft-ietf-lamps-kyber-certificates-11, "Internet X.509 Public Key
Infrastructure - Algorithm Identifiers for the Module-Lattice-Based
Key-Encapsulation Mechanism (ML-KEM)" and
draft-ietf-lamps-cms-ml-dsa-06, "Use of the ML-DSA Signature Algorithm
in the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)" to the RFC Editor.

Juan Carlos Zuniga said that 802.11 will discuss a PAR on this topic
this week and is likely to start a Task Group on this for wireless
networks.

Glenn Parsons said that four experts from NIST will provide some
background information on this during the 802.1 meting this week.

3. Coordination item 25 - TSN Time Sensitive Networking

János Farkas reported that coordination between the DetNet WG and the
TSN Task Group is going well, and a joint workshop is planned for
later today.

Russ Housley noted that DETNET and TSN is an example of good
collaboration between the IETF and IEEE 802.

4. Coordination item 27 - Yang model development in 802

Scott Mansfield reported that YANGsters is a sub-group on YANG
coordination in IEEE.

The is an incompatibility between the string format used to represent
MAC addresses in YANG modules between the IETF and the IEEE. IETF uses
colons between the elements in a MAC address, while IEEE uses dashes.
This was initially a problem because dashes and colons meant something
different, but that difference has been deprecated so that colons and
dashes are now synonymous. Both IETF and IEEE are internally consistent
in how they use them, but this may cause problems for implementers who
try to use both.

Mahesh Jethanandani said that there was a document that was recently
sent to the RFC Editor that could have addressed this but did not;
updating this could be considered for future revisions.

Robert Stacey noted that 802.1 has a MIB that is not well-maintained and
asked what the benefit would be to moving to YANG. Scott Mansfield
replied that a YANG module that shows how the protocol should be
configured and maintained would be a benefit to the industry.

Russ Housley asked whether the use of yangcatalog.org to facilitate
coordination between the various groups that use YANG is working. Scott
Mansfield replied that there is the YANG GitHub repository, where groups
put their modules, and the YANG catalog, which is helpful to show how
modules relate to each other. Scott noted that getting all of the
metadata into the GitHub repos is a recurring issue.

5. Coordination item 33 - Capability Discovery

Russ Housley reported that 802.1 recently sent a liaison to the IETF
LSVR WG on L3DL (Layer-3 Discovery and Liveness).

For background information, the LSVR WG work on L3DL was put on the back
burner a few years back so that the WG could finish other items already
in their charter first. Once that work resumed, some people in 802.1
noted that the L3DL work might replicate work already in LLDP. The
authors of the L3DL draft have taken an action to find out whether the
L3DL protocol can be replaced by another usage of LLDP.

Glenn Parsons said that the editors of the LLDP draft have submitted an
Internet-Draft (draft-bottorff-lsvr-lldp, "Using IEEE Std 802.1AB (LLDP)
for IETF LSVR neighbor discovery and configuration") on how they think
LDP can be used for the L3DL use case.

Ketan Talaulikar said that he appreciates the engagement from 802 on
this topic. The next step is to get the proposed draft update from L3DL
authors that plans to leverage LLDP and hope to develop consensus on it
in the LSVR WG. The LSVR may plan an interim meeting on this topic; if
they do, the details will be forwarded to the coordination list.

6. Jumbo Ethernet Frames

Gorry Fairhurst said that historically, equipment could not send packets
over a certain size, which is no longer the case. Today, there are
protocols in the IETF that can detect bigger MTUs, and he is hearing
interest in other groups about being able to automatically detect large
packets if they used jumbo frames.

Glenn Parsons said that the last time frame size was increased 20 years
ago, UNH did a study on what was supported in the existing equipment. He
said that they could have the discussion again in 802.3, and that he
would suggest another survey of the current equipment, and that there
would need to be a discussion about what coverage is needed to cover
jumbo frames.

Jason Potterf said that he could raise this issue in 802.3.

Dorothy Stanley suggested that this item be added to the coordination
list.

7. Coordination on IETF L4S

– Figuring out how to implement in 802.11. See RFC 9330.

Juan Carlos Zuniga reported that there is discussion in 802.11 about L4S
and signaling congestion, and how to handle that kind of traffic,
knowing that the queuing system is different. This is an ongoing
discussion that will require coordination between IETF TSVWG and 802.11.

Gorry Fairhurst noted that draft-ietf-tsvwg-nqb, "A Non-Queue-Building
Per-Hop Behavior (NQB PHB) for Differentiated Services," is currently in
IESG Evaluation. The idea there is to define traffic that is not
queue-building.

Dorothy Stanley said that L4S is being discussed in 802.11bn now.

8. Wrap up

Russ Housley thanked everyone for attending this meeting and noted how
helpful it was to have informal conversations to keep things running
smoothly.

New items for the "Potential Areas for IETF/IEEE802 Coordination" coordination list

• Post Quantum Cryptography (Deb Cooley, Peter Yee)
• Energy-efficient networking (Mahesh Jethanandani)
• Jumbo Ethernet Frames (Gorry Fairhurst, Jason Potterf)
• IETF L4S and IEEE 802.11 (Juan Carlos Zuniga, Gorry Fairhurst)
• IPv6 power save and 802.11v Flexible Multicast Service (FMS) (Peter
  Yee, David Lamparter, Suresh Krishnan, Mirja Kühlewind)

Webex Chat Transcript

János Farkas [Ericsson]: Please raise your hand in webex if you want
to speak through webex and we'll unmute you. (I'm very sorry for the
inconvenience, I did not know there would be remote participation.)

Mahesh "MJ" Jethanandani: For folks who are interested in understanding
what work the IETF is working on as it relates to energy efficiency
standards, here is some description about the work -
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/green/about/

János Farkas [Ericsson]:
https://1.ieee802.org/2025-07-26-detnet-tsn-workshop/

Orie Steele: Regarding AI, there is also the agent2agent list for API
related discussions, and WIMSE WG on workload identity, and the recent
web bot auth birds of a feather session.

Dorothy Stanley, HP Enterprise: L4S being discussed in 802.11bn now, see
https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/25/11-25-0880-04-00bn-pdt-mac-on-l4s.docx