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2012-07-25 Minutes of the IETF/IEEE 802 Coordination Meeting

Meeting Slides IETF-IEEE (ietfieee) IAB ASG Snapshot
Date and time 2021-12-31 17:00
Title 2012-07-25 Minutes of the IETF/IEEE 802 Coordination Meeting
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Last updated 2022-06-10

IAB, IESG, IEEE Executive Committee
Minutes of the 25 July 2012 Meeting, Milpitas CA

Reported by: Cindy Morgan, Susan Hares, Jon Rosdahl

- Bernard Aboba, IAB Chair
- Gabor Bajko, PAWS chair, 802.11ai vice-chair
- Mary Barnes, IAB Executive Director
- Stewart Bryant, IESG
- Ross Callon, IAB
- Gonzalo Camarillo, IESG 
- Benoit Claise, IESG
- Subir Das, 802.21 Chair
- Spencer Dawkins, IAB
- Ralph Droms, IESG
- Donald Eastlake, 802.11
- Lars Eggert, IRTF Chair
- Adrian Farrel, IESG 
- Stephen Farrell, IESG
- Don Fedyk, 802.1 invited expert
- Norman Finn, 802.1 invited expert
- Howard Frazier, 802.3 MIB Task Group chair
- Eric Gray, IETF Liaison Manager to IEEE 802.1
- Brian Haberman, IESG (via remote)
- Joel Halpern, IAB
- Dave Halasz, 802.11 task group chair 
- Mark Hamilton, 802.11 ARC 
- Susan Hares, IESG Scribe
- Russ Housley, IETF Chair 
- Tony Jeffree, 802.1 Chair
- David Kessens, IAB	
- Eliot Lear, IETF liaison manager to ITU-T
- Barry Leiba, IESG 
- Roger Marks, 802.16 Chair
- Danny McPherson, IAB
- Steve Mills, IEEE Standards Association President
- Cindy Morgan, IETF Secretariat
- Andrew Myles, 802.11 IETF liaison
- Paul Nikolich, 802 Chair
- Glenn Parsons, 802.1 vice chair, RAC chair, IEEE-SA BOG
- Charles Perkins, 802.16 invited expert
- Pete Resnick, IESG (via remote)
- Dan Romascanu, IETF/IEEE-SA liaison
- Jon Rosdahl, 802 Executive Secretary, 802.11 Vice Chair
- Robert Sparks, IESG 
- Dorothy Stanley, 802.11 liaison to IETF
- Dave Thaler, IAB
- Pat Thaler, 802 Vice-Chair
- Geoff Thompson, 802.23 Chair and EC member
- Sean Turner, IESG
- Paul Unbehagen, 802.1 invited expert
- Juan-Carlos Zúñiga, past 802.21 vice chair 


1. Introductions, Goals of the meeting

  The attendees of the meeting all briefly introduced themselves.

  Pat Thaler outlined the high-level goals of the meeting, noting that 
  focus would be on how to improving collaboration between the IEEE 802 
  and the IETF.

  Bernard Aboba noted that in March 2006, RFC 4441 
  [] was published, outlining 
  the relationship between IEEE 802 and the IETF at that time.  Bernard 
  suggested that the discussions during this meeting might result in an 
  update to RFC 4441. 
2. Introduction to IETF Areas, how IETF works, how decisions are made, 
   how liaisons are managed

   Slides: "Introduction to the IETF Standards Process,"

  Russ Housley delivered a brief overview of the IETF Standards process,  
  noting that the IETF mission statement is outlined in RFC 3935 
  [].  Russ explained that the 
  IETF publishes their standards as RFCs, noting that over the last 10 
  years, 90% of the RFCs have come from the IETF, with the rest coming
  from other streams, including the Internet Architecture Board (IAB), 
  Internet Research Task Force (IRTF) and Independent Submission
  Editor (ISE).  The IETF uses an open standards process where all 
  interested people are invited to participate, and decisions are made 

  Working Groups (WGs) are the primary mechanism for development of 
  specifications and guidelines in the IETF.  Proposed charters are sent 
  to the IETF community for review and comment, as well as to the new-
  work mailing list, which includes representatives from a number of 
  other SDOs.  The IESG approves WG charters with IAB input.  Once a WG 
  is chartered, participation is open to all.  The WG Chair sets the 
  agenda for meetings, appoints document editors, and determines when 
  rough consensus has been reached.

  The IETF maintains a number of liaison relationships with other SDOs.  
  The IAB appoints individuals who serve as liaison managers 
  [], and all liaison 
  statements are posted publicly [].

3. Introduction to IEEE 802 WGs, how IEEE 802 works, how decisions are 
   made, how liaisons are managed 

   Slides: "Introduction to the IEEE,"

  Pat Thaler delivered a brief overview of the IEEE standards process.  
  Working groups are responsible for developing standards in an area, 
  and may have multiple active projects. The Technical Advisory Group 
  (TAG) is a group of experts on a topic area that crosses working 
  groups.  Task groups/task forces are parts of a working group which 
  focus on a particular project or group of projects.

  A Project Authorization Request (PAR) is the charter for an IEEE 
  standards project.  A Call For Interest (CFI) is a brief meeting to 
  outline a topic and determine if there is investigating a possible 
  projects.  Study Groups are formed to investigate a project and 
  produce a PAR and Five Criteria (broad market potential, 
  compatibility, distinct identity, technical feasibility, economic 

  The question arose as to whether IEEE 802 has a web page where
  it lists the liaisons to other organizations.  At present there
  is no such web page. 

4. Collaborating & managing the relationship 

   Slides: "IETF-IEEE Relationship - RFC 4441 Summary,"

  Spencer Dawkins summarized the relationship between the IETF and IEEE 
  802 as outlined in RFC 4441.  Key points include:

  - Liaisons are appointed between the organizations as needed
  - IETF participants can access IEEE archives
  - IEEE subscribes to the new-work mailing list and posts PARs
  - IETF "MIB doctors" review IEEE 802 MIBs
  - IETF EAP WG reviews IEEE EAP requirements as well as 
    IEEE 802-supplied draft text
  - IEEE 802 requests new AAA applications; IETF reviews IEEE 802 AAA 

  Bernard Aboba noted that since RFC 4441 was published, some of the 
  IETF MIB work has been transferred to 802.1 and 802.3.  Also, the EAP
  WG has closed and for liaison purposes has been succeeded by the EMU

5. Specific areas where collaboration is needed

5.1. IETF MIF & IEEE 802.21
     Slides: "IETF MIF & IEEE 802.21,"

  Subir Das presented an overview of proposed work in the IETF MIF WG 
  that may overlap with work done in IEEE 802.21, and made the following 

  - IETF MIF should not re-do the work that 802.21 has already done
    * 802.21 defines a Media Independent Services SAP (API) that 
      provides most of the functionalities that MIF is looking for
    * 802.21 also defines low level Media Specific SAPs for the 
      underlying access technologies
  - IETF MIF should identify requirements and make references to 802.21 
    SAPs where appropriate
    * If non-existing functionalities are identified both MIF and 802.21 
      should work together 

5.2. IEEE OmniRAN for Heterogeneous Networks
     Slides: "IEEE OmniRAN for Heterogeneous Networks,"

  Roger Marks presented a proposal for a new IEEE 802 WG to specify 
  access network abstraction layer above IEEE 802 access technologies, 
  noting that the work is related to some IETF WGs (e.g. DMM, MIF, 
  NETEXT), and made the following recommendations:  

  - IEEE 802 OmniRAN can close the gap and tie 802 devices into a family 
    of standards within a heterogeneous IP network supporting evolving 
    IETF standards
  - IEEE 802 and IETF should…
    * leverage each other's expertise
    * plan communications
    * identify commonalities
    * link solutions
    * organize a team to coordinate milestones and progress

5.3. BFD to detect Link Aggregation link failures
     Slides: "BFD to detect LinkAgg link failures,"

  Norman Finn noted that drafts have been written (but not adopted in 
  IETF WGs) for using BFD to detect Link Aggregation failures.  Norman 
  suggested that BFD is at the wrong layer for this, and suggested the 
  following ways to avoid layer violations:

  - Invent and use a Layer 3 equivalent of LACP that fits routing and 
  - Use Ether OAM; work with 802.1 to invent a way to avoid needless 
  - Encapsulate BFD below LinkAgg thus giving the world two ways to do 
    exactly the same thing. 

5.4. TRILL: Fine-Grained Labeling 
     Slides, "TRILL: Fine-Grained Labeling "

  Paul Unbehagen presented a brief summary of the IETF TRILL WG work on 
  Fine-Grained Labeling which raises concerns about the use of the 
  existing 0x8100 Ethertype.  IEEE 802 suggested that new protocols 
  should require new Ethertypes.

5.5. IETF NV03 and IEEE 802.1 DCB

  Dan Romascanu noted that work in the newly-formed IETF NVO3 WG may 
  overlap with work in the IEEE 802.1 Data Center Bridging Task Group.  
  All parties involved agreed to watch these developments and intervene 
  if necessary.

5.6. Transfer of Ethernet MIB work from IETF to IEEE 802.3 

  Benoit Claise briefly described the process of transferring the work 
  from now concluded IETF HUBMIB WG to the IEEE 802.3 WG. The issue was 
  discussed in the break with Howard Frazier and Dan Romascanu. Most of 
  the open issues were agreed, and there is also agreement on co-
  authoring an Informational RFC that will document the MIB transfer 

6. Impact of virtualization on the architecture of IEEE 802 and IETF 

   Slides: "IEEE Registration Authority: Virtualization & OUI Tiers,"

  Glenn Parsons presented a brief overview of the IEEE Registration 
  Authority Committee (RAC) mission, highlighting the current RAC policy 
  on virtualization and asking what virtualization policy would reduce 
  the consumption of EUI-48 addresses.  Norman Finn suggested this could 
  be an area of collaboration between the IETF and the IEEE 802.

7. Action items, follow-up methods, plans for next meeting 

  Paul Nikolich and Russ Housley suggested another face-to-face meeting 
  in March 2013, as the IEEE 802 and the IETF will hold back-to-back 
  meetings in Orlando, Florida.  In the meantime, the liaison managers 
  will arrange bimonthly conference calls, with the participants for 
  each call depending on the agenda.

  The following action items were identified:

  - Spencer Dawkins, Eric Gray, Dan Romascanu, Dorothy Stanley and Pat 
    Thaler agreed to work on an update to RFC 4441.

  - Howard Frazier and Dan Romascanu agreed to write an Informational 
    RFC that will document the MIB transfer process. 

  - The IEEE 802 agreed to review and update the people they currently 
    have subscribed to the new-work mailing list, and to send PARs to 

  - The IEEE 802 agreed to add a page to their website listing their 
    current liaison relationships.

  - The IEEE 802 will look at removing mailing list restrictions that 
    prevent IETF participants from contributing to IEEE 802 work.

  - The IESG agreed to draft an IESG Statement regarding Ethertype 

  - The IAB and IESG will suggest a process for providing feedback to 
    the IEEE RAC on Virtualization and OUI Tiers.