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2015-09-29: Minutes
slides-interim-2021-ietfieee-04-sessa-2015-09-29-minutes-00

Meeting Slides IETF-IEEE (ietfieee) IAB ASG
Date and time 2021-12-31 20:00
Title 2015-09-29: Minutes
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Last updated 2022-06-10

slides-interim-2021-ietfieee-04-sessa-2015-09-29-minutes-00
IAB, IESG and IEEE 802 Executive Committee
Minutes of the 29 September 2015 Virtual Meeting

Reported by: Amy Vezza, IETF Secretariat

ATTENDEES
-------------------

Mikael Abrahamsson
Jari Arkko
Alia Atlas
Mary Barnes
Deborah Brungard
Ben Campbell
Benoit Claise
Alissa Cooper
Subir Das
Spencer Dawkins
Ralph Droms
Donald Eastlake
Janos Farkas
Eric Gray
Bob Grow
Craig Gunther
Brian Haberman
Ted Hardie
Bob Heile
Marc Holness
Russ Housley
Pat Kinney
Jouni Korhonen
David Law
Barry Leiba
John Messenger
Kathleen Moriaty
Paul Nikolich
Erik Nordmark
Alvaro Retana
Dan Romascanu
Jon Rosdahl
Dorothy Stanley
Andrew Sullivan
Pat Thaler
Pascal Thubert
Brian Trammell
Juan Carlos Zuniga

REGRETS
-------------------
Cindy Morgan
Glenn Parsons

1. Roll Call, Agenda Bashing, Minutes Approval

2. Review of Other Action Items from Previous Meetings (not part of the shared
items list)

  - Juan Carlos Zuniga to send mail to the coordination list about the next
  Privacy SG meeting. [DONE]

  - Benoit Claise to put the YANG doctors in touch with Marc Holness regarding
  shared item 27. [DONE]

3. 2016 Face to Face meeting

Dan Romascanu started the discussion of a face-to-face meeting in January of
2016 to co-locate with the IEEE big interim meeting week in Atlanta, GA. The
date proposed was January 16.

Dan proposed a number of possible discussion topics for the proposed
face-to-face.  There was discussion whether a face-to-face meeting was
necessary for the topics proposed, as well as if a face-to-face meeting just
before the IESG and IAB leadership change would be useful.

Russ Housley mentioned that face-to-face meetings are useful to create and
maintain informal connections and collaborative efforts.

Jari Arkko agreed that face-to-face meetings were valuable to both communities.

Pat Thaler mentioned if the group wanted to meet face to face a different time
of year it would need to be planned as a separate event and not in conjunction
with something already on the calendar, unless the group looked to co-locate
with the IAB/IESG retreat usually scheduled for spring.

The group decided that a virtual meeting for January 2016 would be a better use
of resources and Dan Romascanu agreed to run a doodlepoll for scheduling the
meeting.

4. HOMENET and IEEE 802.11 (and other 802) multicast - Mikael Abrahamsson and
Adrian Stephens (slides) with John Messenger standing in for Adrian Stephens

Mikael Abrahamsson spoke about the IP and packet transport on multicast on
802.11 networks. He touched on the history of IP over 802.3 wired networks as
well as on 802.2 ethernet in relation to packet loss. Mikael mentioned end
users just want the Internet to work, most have no knowledge of how it works.

Mikael mentioned that IPv6 Makes use of multicast for its control plane, and
are delay tolerant, but sensitive to packet loss. In HOMENET from a routing
protocol point of view some wanted to use IS-IS which is layer 2 multicast.

Mikael talked about how the people doing mesh networking are putting pressure
on the IETF because multicast doesn't work on wireless as they see it.  They
need to apply multicast reduction due to high packet loss and in order to
achieve energy efficiency. They are forced  to change the IP stack and use
unicast instead. When questioned why they didn't talk to 802.11 about the
issues they had making it work, they indicated they had no contact.

Mikael spoke about IPv6 being more adversely affected by multicast and
broadcast packet loss compared to IPv4 which caused some to voice opinions
about limiting use of broadcast/multicast.

John Messenger discussed the 802.11 properties about loss of packets through
collision, interference or poor rate adaptation decisions or changes in the
radio channel.  Unicast traffic can be retried which improves reliability, but
multicast does not get retried.

John talked about how multicast/broadcast traffic is sent a basic rate which
might be as low as 6 Mbps when unicast is operating at 600 Mbps.

John mentioned new options not yet commonly implemented like groupcast with
retries (GCR) and the flexible multicast service that allows a multicast rate
higher than basic. These are being added to 802.118ak which will come out next
year with the revision.

John discussed how both unicast and multicast can be delayed by power saving
mechanisms. Higher layer packets can get discarded due to buffer limitations in
the AP and non-AP.

John talked about the options implementers have. An 802.11 AP manufacturer
could optimize multicast-related behaviors by turning multicast into unicast
traffic or ARP proxying.

Juan Carlos Zuniga commented that the GCR (groupcast with retries) is not
commonly implemented or certified yet.  He wanted to know if between the IETF
and 02.11 if GCR would solve the issues for multicast over IPv6.

Pascal Thubert mentioned there are Internet-Drafts in the IETF that discuss
these issues and they are more complex.

Erik Nordmark mentioned that it would be useful to understand the different
parameters, not just who is working to solve the problem but what the problem
is.

Pat Thaler talked about a problem to be addressed with regard to multicast
important for operation of basic protocols. For IP to work.

The slides are available at:
https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2013/01/multicast-problem-statement.pptx

Juan Carlos Zuniga commented that the GCR (groupcast with retries) is not
commonly implemented or certified yet.  He wanted to know if between the IETF
and 802.11 if GCR would solve the issues for multicast over IPv6.

Pascal Thubert mentioned there are Internet-Drafts in the IETF that discuss
these issues and they are more complex.

Erik Nordmark mentioned that it would be useful to understand the different
parameters, not just who is working to solve the problem but what the problem
is.

Pat Thaler talked about a problem to be addressed with regard to multicast
important for operation of basic protocols; for IP to work. Which is a
different problem from the streaming problem. The discovery protocols and the
protocols necessary for IPv6 to work over wireless should be the focus.

Pat wanted to know if there was an IETF working group that would be appropriate
for this work.

Dan Romascanu mentioned he thought the Internet Area would be appropriate.

Ralph Droms suggested the 6MAN working group.

Mikael Abrahamsson suggested V6OPS, but would need 802.11 experts to contribute.

Russ Housley mentioned having a directorate with experts from each side to
advise whichever working group ended up writing the document.

Brian Haberman talked about the various working groups that have brought up the
subject in their meetings.  V6OPS, MBONED, INTAREA, and HOMENET. He mentioned
that any would be appropriate to have someone come and discuss the 802.11
functionality that exists already.

Dan Romascanu thought the INTAREA would be appropriate.

NEW ACTION ITEM:

Mikael Abrahamsson (IETF) and Dorothy Stanley (802.11) to coordinate for a
presentation of a discussion of 802.11 functionality for the INTAREA at IETF
94. Juan Carlos Zuniga as INTAREA WG co-chair to put it on the WG's agenda for
IETF 94.

5. November 2015 meetings
- short pass on the IETF BOFs and IEEE 802 PARs that may be relevant to IEEE
802 and IETF coordination
        - http://trac.tools.ietf.org/bof/trac/wiki/WikiStart#
        - http://www.ieee802.org/PARs.shtml
- Tutorials

Barry Lieba gave a short description of the BoF ISS for IETF 94. ISS is looking
to build a standard protocol for synchronization for Internet storage (for
example dropbox).

Dan Romascanu asked about new 802.11 PARS for November.

Bob Heile spoke about a consolidated LLC for 15.4 in 802.15 for next March, not
for the November meeting. He mentioned coordination needed between 802.15 and
802.1 as well as the higher level L2 stuff in IETF.

Pat Thaler talked about new PAR in 802.1 for doing an address distribution for
layer 2 for the local addresses.

Janos Farkas mentioned URN name space in YANG that is being circulated for
November.

Pat Thaler discussed 802.3 putting forward PARs might be the study group for
next generation ethernet passive optical networking.

Bob Grow agreed they were ready to bring a PAR forward to target deliver data
rates between 25 gigabits per second and 100 gigabits per second using the PON
multi-drop architecture.

Pat Thaler also mentioned the two and a half and five gigabits back plane and
short reach study group bringing a PAR forward for November.

6. Areas of shared interest between the IETF and IEEE 802.  Review of the list
of items, status and action items - discussion led by Pat and Dan

Item 3: IETF NVO3 and IEEE 802.1 DCB

Pat Thaler reported that the PAR was approved and are working on developing the
PAR. Currently she are working on identifying an editor to start work on the
draft.

NEW ACTION ITEM:

Pat Thaler to identify an editor to begin work on the draft.

Item 5: Enabling use of Local Addresses for virtualization and IoT (was: Effect
of virtualization on IEEE 802 architecture)

Nothing to report.

Item 11:
11. IETF and IEEE 802.1 OmniRAN TG

Juan Carlos Zuniga updated item 11 for Max Riegel.

The presentation is available here:
https://www.iab.org
/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2015/09/omniran-15-0046-00-00TG-sept-2015-status-report-to-802wgs.pptx

19. Common OAM proposal / Layer Independent OAM

The latest status, as of Sept 14th is
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lime/current/msg00347.html Also, from the
charter, note: - "This usability and extensibility must be demonstrated, for
example with IP Ping, traceroute, BFD, and LSP Ping." -> this is the basis for
the applicability statement - "Therefore, it is anticipated that the working
group will closely coordinate its activities with other SDOs (including, but
not limited to the ITU-T, MEF, IEEE, BBF and 3GPP) to ensure that the generic
models are harmonized with work done in those SDOs and are applicable to many
technologies."

Item 21: 6tsch

Bob Heile for 802.15 updated on 6TISCH. He mentioned 15.4 is in sponsor ballot
and will help with the work in the IETF 6TISCH WG. 802.15 is fully behind it.

Pascal Thubert added with 802.15.4 work on the six top layer. He also discussed
the need for IETF code point for IEEE.

22. CAPWAP extensions in OPSAWG

draft-ietf-opsawg-capwap-alt-tunnel (Alternate Tunnel Encapsulation for Data
Frames in CAPWAP) will merge with draft-you-opsawg-capwap-separation-for-mp
(CAPWAP Control and Data Channel Separation for Multi-provider Scenario)

Item 24: Area Name - coordination between the IETF and IEEE 802 on Pervasive
Monitoring

Juan Carlos Zuniga spoke about how on the IETF side they carried out trials on
the wifi privacy and the set up is now permanent.  The same thing happened in
the IEEE 802 meetings to keep the set up as permanent.  The work in the
specific 802 study group, they wrote a PAR that got approved by NETCOM (?) and
the standards board at IEEE so now there is project 802E about privacy
recommendations for 802 protocol developers. The work will be done by the 802.1
security group meeting at the upcoming Dallas meeting in November. The 802E
specification will be available to all 802 developers.

Item 25: Area Name - Layer2/Layer 3 Interaction for Time-Sensitive Traffic

The DETNET WG in IETF is up for approval at the next IESG Teleconference.

Item 26: Area Name - IS-IS extensions for IEEE 802.1Qca

Janos Farkas updated the group with the IEEE 802.1Qca document has been
approved. They are waiting on the corresponding IETF documents to be approved
and assigned RFC numbers.

27. Area Name - development of YANG models in the IEEE 802

- Mahesh, as YANG doctor, is contact with Mark Holness. All IEEE 802.1X and
802.1Q YANG [draft] models now compile cleanly (using the Ðietf option in Pyang
v1.5), with the exception of the namespace naming warning. - Marc will post the
IEEE [draft] YANG models into GitHub at
https://github.com/YangModels/yang/tree/master/ this week - IETF draft for IEEE
URN, by Mahesh. Glen wanted to have someone from within IEEE submit the draft,
so at this point I have handed over the draft to him.  This was discussed
during the interim meeting two weeks ago, and could not agree on the tree
structure of the URN. Anyway, it will be administered by the IEEE and a project
will be opened in November - Need to get back to Robert Wilton on his
ÒInterface VLANÓ YANG model draft. Quoting Mark Holness: "I believe there were
initial concerns that this work overlapped with the work being done in 802.1.
Mark needs to close the loop on this with Glenn Parsons. I donÕt think there is
overlap, but Glenn has some concerns." - Formation of at least an initial team
for IEEE 802.3 YANG model. Owner: Mahesh and David Law - There is a YANG
tutorial at the next IETF meeting, on Sunday.

7. Review of Action Items

New Action Items:

Dan Romascanu will run a doodlepoll to choose a date for a virtual meeting in
January 2016.

Dan Romascanu and Pat Thaler to work on finding a time for a face to face later
in 2016.

Mikael Abrahamsson (IETF) and Dorothy Stanley (802.11) to coordinate for a
presentation of a discussion of 802.11 functionality for the INTAREA WG at IETF
94. Juan Carlos Zuniga as INTAREA WG co-chair to put it on the WG's agenda for
IETF 94.