IETF DTN working group meeting IETF 110 - Virtual Thurs 2021-03-11 17:00 - 19:00 (UTC) Co-chairs: Rick Taylor, Ed Birrane Notetakes: Adam Wiethuechter Agenda ===== - Admin, Chairs, 10 mins. Start at 1100 cRT: Initial welcome cEB on the agenda, 2 parts Part 1, 4 presentations on deployment Part 2, next steps for rechartering and prioritization of items cRT: please be cautious with notes! Take care to avoid colliding with others :-) Magnus leaving, welcome Zaheduzzaman! (Zahed) Sec is Adam W! Lots of docs in RFCEditor queue and on their way to standard! bis, sec and tcp-cl4 BPSec needs AD Review Charter item for Custody Superseeded by BIBE RT will glady present if needed - Bundle-in-Bundle Encapsulation (BIBE), 15 mins (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dtn-bibect/) Scott Burleigh Talk from 3 years ago as no changes since then and good summary Original BIBE from 2009 from MITRE Corp. Capability of BP nodes agent (as application) Support Content-centric networking Still valid motiivations Resurrected in 2013 as a convergence layer Intends to disentagle routing from security BIBE takes place of security source/dest Custody Transfer in 2015/16 Removed from BP ultimately Could not be made effecient (estimate rtt not possible) delay tolerant asym needed in some scenarios Custody transfer at convergence layer node to node BIBE did this already! Cross-domain security and reliable coverage Aggregate custody signing 2012 group from U of Colorado, Boulder Used for ISS for asymm data rates ACS success, replaced old custody transfer in BIBE May 2018 draft posted with this change Reliable convergence layer protocol Details on how it works Applications Will not go through all of them here in detail Future BIBE consider adoption and part of charter Spec simple and not hard to implement Powerful cRT: Noted that want WG adoption, roll into charter discussion - BPv7 tests with ESA OPS-SAT, 15 mins Marius Feldmann and Felix Walter Title changed MF: Background Ring Road concept For low cost comm networks Two fights; Dresden and ESA OPS-SAT Issues! CubeSat needed simple impl. - wouldn't make it due to complexity ESA OPS-SAT no feedback? Time moved on and microPCN grew and became open source microD3TN was first BPv7 impl. modular design App Agent Protocol - simple integration Field Test 1: Project COLDSUN uD3TN used as first field test of BPv7 02/2019-07/2019 Mobile underwater network through sat. Answer to not having flight opportunity! ESA OPS-SAT Dec 2019, D3TN first experiment Experiement to show ring road uD3TN both on ground and sat. Planned extended version with ION FW: Shed some light on tech details for experiement with ESA Had to config all services running Example of a D3TN configuation Shows some log files of an actual test Conclusion BPv7 works great! Routing and forwarding via timestamps are error prone Standardized config/management required Would like to explore AMP in future Tools to check neighbor availability in DTN massively useful! More tests and experiements together please! cRT: Very interesting and conclusions will feed into discussions in second half - Potential updates to UDPCL definition of RFC 7122, 15 mins Brian Sipos Updated to UDPCL Speculation and open to question UDP provides unique behavior that other transports don't have Main goal: backwards compatability 1 bundle = 1 datagram BPv6 and v7 compatability? Weak points of UDPCL BPSec and certificate chain the bundle would approach MTU Unicast vs Multicast BPAgent level details Must agent choose interface bundle be transported on? Security Here is how, but don't need to Send and forget strategy Bundle packing in datagram from effeciency rn 1 bundle = 1 datagram what about packing multiple if useful? agent behind NAT, udp convo could advertise Draft posted DTLS use and other topics github link... Next Steps need to discussion above things wg draft? MW: Assume maintain simple? Maybe want to discuss reuse of ...? BS: Did look into these topics, consistent port nums, etc. UDPCL does not mention these things. MW: bidirectional? multicast? BS: Nothing about return path in current draft. Is there interest running behing NAT RT: With magnus, take stuff from NAT punch tech. DTN has uses for messaging services and will run into NATS and things. MW: No paticular interest or need, but was asking and suggests keeping it simple. Recommend against. cRT: Sort of topics that WG would sort out, it is interesting work. COSE Contexts Similar as last presentation Glue between two existing protocols and well defined Proposes a simple set of profiles Sym and Asym keys Asym key behavior in little effort as possible COSE nice as no bi-directionality COSE WG with PKIX and X509 Main requirements already exists Demo implementation with bi-directional cRT: WG adoption as well - Interplanetary Internet interoperability and management considerations, 15 mins Alberto Montilla Pilot project WG provide IPNSIG their view and what they are doing Currently building DTN testbed with various active participants Would like to keep IETF WG up to date with progress and learnings (this is first) Active projects DTN testbed networks of networks for experiementation looking at how we scale, 100-1000s of nodes interoperability new feature testing lots of member projects network management for space and earth extending Crisis information mangement systems (earth) using drones AI-based image recongnition DTN Testbed By Feb 4 orgs onboard Welcoming other implementations for interop Exchanging messages, files Started multicast Management is critical Hard to manage and error One EID that was wrong every test Not just in networks but between Seperate routing from management Network Management Very early draft of ... that orgs are using Transfering contacts automatically Example of Unified Medical Records for Space Exploration Reindeer husbandry Fully operational Propreitary version of DTN Commitment to Standards BPv7 AMP for management framework Summary DTN testbed in progress Learning a lot management and routing options Wish to continue reporting cRT: please continue reporting! Scale like this is great feedback - Next Steps for the WG / Re-chartering, 40 mins Chairs cEB: In prep we looked back at new agenda topics for past few years 105 and 106 in prep, calls were put out for next steps Lots of topics came in Concerns This is a lot, how do we trim down? Already stuff that was active BIBE, UDPCL, Key Admin, Asyn Admin, COSE Sec Process Walk through list Anything missing? Priority for next charter Topic by topic here, then to mailing list 111 we make final decision (unless need more time) Interims might be needed Topic breakdown Extensions to existing work More and closer to being finished New work on top of BP and DTN Arch Spend time scoping and understanding on fewer of these Extensions BIBE, Manfiest Block, Convergence Layers, Security Contexts, Async Management Async Management Vital to manage devices in DTN network cRT: this has been brought up 2-3 today There is a draft and ready for WGLC Last call after this meeting New Work Proposals Naming/Addressing Registry of Service IDs Neighbor Discovery Routing DTN Key Admin cRT: Naming/Addressing defines format complexity in reading between lines Locator/ID seperation How do we locate them if ID is ID? Global? Will IPN have a unique names? IANA, how to hand out? EID cna refer to multicast entity Lots of things Registry of Service IDs Ex. Port 22 == SSH Do we have common DTN services we wish to refresh? IPN has concept of service number, DTN does not Marc Blanchet: We do this Service Registry work once BPbis is out Resume that work Very important Need to identity what to expect to receive where cRT: Consider yourself voluntereed! Neighbor Discovery BP Discovery (ARPish) Service/Endpoint Discovery Convergence Layer Discovery Node IDs? Hybrid? It all just works This is all more than 1 draft Scott B: Endorse importance of this ... Excellent starting point Core at convergence layer Brain S: Did play with this in MANET UDPCL update would be multicast disovery to IP Layer discovery BP does stuff MANET does lower? cRT: Looks good, nice Routing Really hard, where or when to bundles SABR, PROPHET Haven't solved, need ideas If starting tomorrow, beyond our current bandwidth Proposal: divide into folding then routing problem Fowarding Spec Routing info base and sum of clever stuff into FIB of host Try to define the FIB (minimum for DTN) This might be achievable! How does FIB work with other topics Scott B: Think correct - still actively being researched Endorse idea of studying and pay attention to it but not commit to target Multicast for forwarding and routing and naming/addressing Ronald Velt: Re routing: one important categorization is single bundle copy versus multiple bundle copies strategies cRT: Multicasting touches a lot of things Scott: Lots of things here closely intertwined cRT: Interim for naming/addressing to see if any agreement cEB: Routing in general for current charter and do after naming/addessing and mulitcast cRT: Can't deal with all these without pinning down a general concept for filling FIB with something How its filled out of scope but if it is filled how do we use it - in scope and need to define it DTN Key Admin Scott with interesting ways to distrubute Run this over BP Martin Duke: Clarify scope: how forwarding decision made RT: If you define FIB you must define how to use otherwise just table MD: Reasonable RT: "How table is populated is currently out of scope" Information doc as reference point for other documents MD: Cross area discussion in charter Scott: I like idea of info doc for FIB or terms and stuff Zahed: Mix of tech and charter Help understand?? Ronald: Does FIB presuppose that there is a single "next hop"? MD: I hope not Ronald. cRT: What does WG want to do, ordered by interest and technical need. Tackle naming, neighors and services, etc. Is there interest from others? Ronald: Per EID I mean. cEB: Look at BPv6 and remember that deployments and turning it into BPv7 Work through the backlog Zahed: Looked through charter MD: (wearing my hat as irresponsible AD) beyond "what does the WG want to work on?" the other question is "what are people ready to deploy?" cRT: 111 propose charter? MD: ^^^ .... (missed) Stu Card: I keep trying to find time to work on SMTP and NORM CLs but so far no joy. Ronny Bull: I am building out a robust EMANE cluster and would like to use it to help test and further progress the development and acceptance of BIBE. MD: Link to the TAPS talk: https://youtu.be/RvFy-FFd5CU?t=627 Marc Blancet: DAT: DTN address translation cEB: Plan intermin meeting? Any support for this? Mike English: Is there use case / scoping work that could help inform future routing considerations? Marc Blanchet: Yes to interim if one topic cRT: Probably interim would be about naming/addressing Stu Card: Support topic for interim cEB: We must get correct cRT: Flurry of email on adoption stuff - Any other business / Open Mic, 10 mins