[{"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "HI!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:00:48Z"}, {"author": "Ted Hardie", "text": "Hi, Sean!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:02:02Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "Well - abusing the Nespresso!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:02:48Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "I will contribute to the notes, but don't depend on me, as I'm simultaneously working on something else.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:04:31Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "And we who go in the next hour appreciate you working through this :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:06:02Z"}, {"author": "Mike Bishop", "text": "Doesn't the \"Note Really Well\" say that we have to be nice to them regardless of which slot they have?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:06:51Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Hello! I am now sitting in my house, watching a room with a few people in Vienna. Yes, it's 2022.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:06:53Z"}, {"author": "Bron Gondwana", "text": "meetecho: we're getting no slides available in the materials<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:06:54Z"}, {"author": "Bron Gondwana", "text": "for everyone except kirsty<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:07:12Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "you should be able to reload them<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:07:18Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "there's a reload button at the top of the materials page<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:07:30Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "@Bron: seems okay now FYI<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:07:32Z"}, {"author": "Bron Gondwana", "text": "yep, got them after reload<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:07:37Z"}, {"author": "Bron Gondwana", "text": "we'll tell the next presenter to do that<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:07:44Z"}, {"author": "Bron Gondwana", "text": "thanks<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:07:53Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "\"Note Really Well\" is really the IETF term for what everyone else calls Code of Conduct.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:08:14Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "\"Note Well\" already points to the code of conduct. \"Note Really Well\" reminds you what's in there (generally).<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:10:05Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@Mike :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:10:29Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin BILLON", "text": "I don't know if \"feedback look\" is clear for everyone so just in case, it is explained in rfc6449, with \"The intent of a Complaint Feedback Loop is to provide Feedback&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Consumers with information necessary to mitigate Spam or the perception of Spam. \". Basically, when an email recipient clients on the \"this is a spam\" button, the sender would receive the feedback.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:11:41Z"}, {"author": "cabo", "text": "Chairs: you let in slides without slide numbers\u2026<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:11:51Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "cabo, the slide number is in the header<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:12:13Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@benjamin thanks for the background<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:12:24Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "current;y 5/6<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:12:27Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "Tnx Benjamin<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:12:42Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "@BILLON Thanks for explanation of what the feedback loop is for. That wasn't at all clear to me.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:13:11Z"}, {"author": "cabo", "text": "@Martin: Thanks\u2026&nbsp;&nbsp;need to hone my reflexes to look there...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:13:14Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": ":100:ooo emoticons<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:13:24Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "EMAILDISPATCH<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:14:42Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "MAILMAN<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:14:52Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "Pete wins<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:14:59Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "Doesn't this provide a path for blowback attacks?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:15:21Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "(Pete didn't invent that idea. ;-) )<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:15:23Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Pete: MAILPerson?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:15:33Z"}, {"author": "John Levine", "text": "@jck there are plenty of paths for blowback attacks, another hardly matters<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:15:49Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "I can still hear you though<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:15:51Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@jck: There's a good explanation of the blowback problem in the draft.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:08Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "Sounded fine on Meetecho. :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:10Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@JohnL: well, there is that :-(<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:12Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "I am remote and you sound good to me<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:20Z"}, {"author": "Ben Campbell", "text": "@murray: You sounded better after they said something. I think it's a distance-to-mike thing.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:23Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "ditto<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:26Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "murray is faint, but still audible on meetecho<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:28Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "could hear you fine remotely<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:31Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "I had this problem yesterday too.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:39Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "Given the security feedback just raised, I don't think AD sponsor is a good path<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:16:41Z"}, {"author": "Nikita Lukianets", "text": "Unfortunately can't present just right now, we have an airstrike alert. I have to go into a bombshelter @kirsty. Will try to join a bit later hope we could shift<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:17:09Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin BILLON", "text": "take care Nikita :pensive:<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:17:35Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "good luck, Nikita<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:17:36Z"}, {"author": "Ted Hardie", "text": "good luck, Nikita<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:17:43Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "I can't imagine what your life is like, @Nikita.&nbsp;&nbsp;Take care.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:17:49Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "On this draft: We are discussing the idea of having an \"email maintenance\" working group to cover this and other work that has been coming lately, but can't go to any of the current email working groups.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:17:53Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "best wishes and good luck Nikita<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:18:09Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "We're seeing the slidess.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:19:16Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "And, we can hear you just fine.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:19:25Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "The difficulty with a[nother] mail WG is that there does not seem to be adequate energy in EMAILCORE to do much work on-list.&nbsp;&nbsp;If a new WG, with more interesting topics than polishing old specs, further diluted that limited energy, it would not be good news.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:19:33Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "What's the current scheme for sharing ECH config?&nbsp;&nbsp;Something in the DNS?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:19:52Z"}, {"author": "John Levine", "text": "the SVCB kitchen sink RR<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:20:14Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "So Richard, yes.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:20:39Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "SVCB or HTTPS<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:20:40Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "@jck: That's one of the considerations.&nbsp;&nbsp;Another (which I think Barry raised) is the need to set an appropriate bar for what sorts of things that WG should process, for fear of it becoming a kitchen sink.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:21:08Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "ECH sounds like something elliptic curve related.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:21:08Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "maybe someone should just do a DNS == .well-known draft just to obviate the need for these poitn solutions<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:21:10Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "What is ECH?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:21:34Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "@John - it would be interesting to hear how many people who are present would be actually intending to participate/spending energy in it (so if you do, please manifest yourself :) )<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:21:34Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "My concern with a mailman group is that it could turn into an attractive nuisance, so it will need a good dispatching function built in to rid itself of proposals that are \"in the sink\".<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:21:39Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "@PHB encrypted client hello<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:21:56Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@RLB: <a href=\"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8615/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8615/</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:22:10Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "For what protocol?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:22:26Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "@pete: Right.&nbsp;&nbsp;And it needs a better name.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:22:30Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "ESNI -&gt; ECH<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:22:36Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "mailcarrier?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:22:46Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@PHB to encrypt SNI<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:22:56Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "mailbox<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:00Z"}, {"author": "Eric Orth", "text": "It seems more and more stuff would want to use this mechanism as more and more stuff gets stuffed into SVCB.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:01Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "mailkitchen<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:01Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "It's a TLS extension that encrypts most of the ClientHJello message.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:06Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "The TLS WG had a minor debate about what to call it<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:07Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "Ah its a TLS extension.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:18Z"}, {"author": "Suhas Nandakumar", "text": "i found this blog: <a href=\"https://blog.cloudflare.com/encrypted-client-hello/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://blog.cloudflare.com/encrypted-client-hello/</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:22Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "NB ECH is still a draft, not sure if that matters for this proposal?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:24Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "postfix<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:27Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "@Pete since we have EMAILCORE how about EMAILCONTEXT?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:23:35Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "REMAIN - \"random email maintenance\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:24:17Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Lennox", "text": "The usual pair to *CORE is *EXT in WG names...that might be broader than desired though<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:24:26Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Backronym work is always the best use of time... ;)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:24:45Z"}, {"author": "lucasp", "text": "lets abuse ALPN some more<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:25:15Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "ECH is an I-D, but there is also this: <a href=\"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8744/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8744/</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:25:17Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "EMAILDIS would have the advantage of being able to be read as ..Dispatch, ..Distraction, or ..Disgust.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:25:59Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Why in ART instead of SEC?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:26:02Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "can't hear up here on stage anyway because all the speakers are pointing the other way - will note this to the secretariat.&nbsp;&nbsp;Not so bad when the speaker is in the room but it's hard when it's remote<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:26:05Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "(looking ahead on the slides) please note that \"Dispatch to ISE\" is not a dispatch outcome - the correct dispatch there is let's not do it in ietf<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:26:11Z"}, {"author": "Deb Cooley", "text": "@Pete - good question<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:26:14Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "TLS, UTA, DNSOP were mentioned in the mailing list<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:26:45Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "so ART instead of SEC is not defined<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:27:09Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "Francesca, want to make those points at the mic...? :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:27:20Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "ok :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:27:35Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "but plenty of people (and chairs) in the queue already<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:27:59Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Seems like put it in TLS and get ARTART to look at it early.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:28:40Z"}, {"author": "sftcd", "text": "resnick is correct :-) (sorry, driving slides in another room but couldn't resist:-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:29:08Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "Stephen we can relay your view if you'd like to share it here<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:30:01Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "I want Stephen's agreement with me recorded for posterity.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:30:05Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "do we have TLS chairs to give their opinion?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:30:06Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "as usual, i think Ted is on point here<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:30:07Z"}, {"author": "sftcd", "text": "@kirsty: I think it's on the slide so ok<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:30:38Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "I think the chairs have a \"Mute Everyone\" button.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:31:14Z"}, {"author": "Deb Cooley", "text": "and a mute attendees button<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:31:28Z"}, {"author": "Deb Cooley", "text": "but he was in the queue<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:31:42Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "incidentally, +1 to mnot and the suggestion to sit on this a little bit<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:32:41Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "yeah, sorry - we were distracted<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:32:45Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "+1 that this is an instance of a more general problem<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:33:25Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "yes, let's boil the ocean.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:33:29Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "this whole idea does seem a little \"turtles all the way down\", since you're doing HTTPS to figure out how to do HTTPS<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:33:35Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "(btw, \"HTTPS\" was an answer in yesterday's NYT crossword!)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:34:05Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@rich: Yeah, that's my concern. We have done \"configure the world\" protocols before. They don't seem to ever go well.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:34:09Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "My initial reaction to this was 'why now?'<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:34:20Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "Because CDN's want to deploy ECH and make it easy for multi-CDN customers<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:34:50Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "The mult-cdn case is huge.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:36:02Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "I'm not sure I want DNSOP designing HTTP APIs...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:36:10Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "Believe me, dnsop is right there with you.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:36:27Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "multi-CDN is why \"encrypted SNI\" became \"encrypted ClientHello\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:36:35Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "+1 to mnot and DL.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:36:46Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Now I want to force TLS to take it :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:37:44Z"}, {"author": "Mike Bishop", "text": "So I think I'm hearing that the IETF wants this, and none of the proposed WGs do.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:04Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Hmmmm...so the problem is not so much figuring out where it should go as much as who is willing to take it.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:06Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@MNOT I am not sue we want DNSOP doing a security spec<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:10Z"}, {"author": "Mike Bishop", "text": "New WG?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:14Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "not a new wg<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:18Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@Pete yep<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:19Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "it's a CONFIGURATION spec of an existing security mechanism.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:29Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Are there implementers lined up?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:53Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "Given link to the ECH draft, dispatch to the TLS wg for now<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:56Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "and it maps to not just this security system but probably many need about the same thing<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:59Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@Pete a mechanism in an I-D, but yeah<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:38:59Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Find out which WG doesn't step backwards fast enough when volunteers are asked for.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:01Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "yes.&nbsp;&nbsp;akamai will do it.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:07Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "I heard a bunch of cheering for \"generic\".&nbsp;&nbsp;Perhaps one of those people can get some deployments lined up to talk about how they might use something like this.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:07Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "and the authors include other CDN's<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:15Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "I meant more on client side...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:25Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@MT agreed<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:29Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "mnot, this doesn't need client implementation<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:36Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "it's a server-to-server thing<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:48Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Ah - must re-read, it's been a while. If that's the case...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:48Z"}, {"author": "Eric Orth", "text": "The \"client\" of this is the zone file updater.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:39:51Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "If TLS is really allergic to it, HTTP can probably consider it. <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:40:18Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "not allergic, it is really just outside our expertise -- json, bas64, .well-known.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:40:54Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@mnot I wouldn't say allergic<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:40:59Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "I think the reason it's come to dispatch is because there is wider interest in it, and wider expertise needed, than only in TLS<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:41:20Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "we just need to understand how this is going to be deployed in practice.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:41:23Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "TLS WG seems like a fine dispatch to me tbh.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:41:31Z"}, {"author": "Eric Orth", "text": "Seems we need a WG with expertise in .well-knowns to own it then FYI it to DNSOP and TLS circles.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:41:58Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "Why wouldn't it just get added to the list of headers in emailcore?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:42:06Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "decide extensions and desiderata&nbsp;&nbsp;EMAILDEAD<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:42:12Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "I've been agitating for a web directorate for a while...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:42:12Z"}, {"author": "John Levine", "text": "@rohan emailcore is just for existing practice<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:42:33Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "s/decide/define/ i guess<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:42:52Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "EMAILCORE's scope is limited to 5321 and 5322, not new things.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:43:04Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "DISPOST.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:43:20Z"}, {"author": "Spencer Dawkins", "text": "PLEASE send the Expires header work someplace - I don't have an opinion about where, but I'd love to see it happening in MY inbox!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:43:49Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "+1 sean<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:43:50Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "I'm doing well recognizing some voices, but could speakers _please_ identify themselves, especially since Meetecho does not seem to haver a clue about who is speaking from within the physical room.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:44:15Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Every time I sign up to sponsor something that \"won't be contentious\", it is.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:44:16Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "@Murray Couldn't we drop something tiny like this into 5322?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:44:17Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Murray *loves* AD sponsored drafts. :-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:44:20Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@Murray I know you pain<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:44:50Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "s/you/your<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:45:00Z"}, {"author": "Deb Cooley", "text": "death by a thousand cuts?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:45:23Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "@jck: you can see who<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:45:30Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "Never underestimate the ability of a straightforward email draft to bite you in the bum.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:45:37Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Curiously, everything considers AD Sponsorship to be an option.&nbsp;&nbsp;:)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:45:42Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "is speaking by flipping to the \"attendees\" list and see the top of the queue<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:45:47Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "channeling my inner randy bush: s/cuts/ducks<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:45:48Z"}, {"author": "Spencer Dawkins", "text": "@John, I'll send a note about this to some appropriate place, but until then, it's easier to figure out if you scan to the top of the attendees list - if someone is speaking, they have to have requested audio, and that cuts it down to two or three suspects.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:45:56Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "&gt;quack&lt;<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:46:00Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin BILLON", "text": "Thanks y'all for the feedback ;)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:46:03Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "AD can always say \"no\", even if DISPATCH sends it to you.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:46:07Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Look! It's Rohan!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:46:30Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Hey, me too!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:46:41Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Good to see his smiling face.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:46:42Z"}, {"author": "Jon Peterson", "text": "srsly<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:46:48Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Sean.&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes, but \"down to two or three\" doesn't really do it.&nbsp;&nbsp;And there have been several disembodied voices with no one listed in the queue.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:48:37Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "Hi John, I expect people aren't saying their names as I'm inviting them to speak by calling their name... even if they aren't saying it themselves, I am<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:49:48Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Yeah, people in the room particularly need to give their names.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:49:49Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "we can ask people to state their names if they're not streaming with their name in big print for everybody<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:50:46Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin Schwartz", "text": "Nit: RFC 3860 says \"Common Profile for Instant Messaging\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:50:55Z"}, {"author": "Jon Peterson", "text": "wait someone read rfc3860?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:51:39Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "heh<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:51:52Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "Are we getting an interoprerable chat system out of this?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:52:05Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "@Jim: If the chairs and the WG of EMAILCORE are willing, sure.&nbsp;&nbsp;My impression though was that they'd rather not, preferring their tightly-scoped charter.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:52:32Z"}, {"author": "Hang Shi", "text": "Is there any big IM implementor such as Whatsapp, iMessage involved in MLS?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:52:53Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "scope of MLS WG: It is not a goal of this group to enable interoperability/federation<br/>between messaging applications beyond the key establishment,<br/>authentication, and confidentiality services<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:53:10Z"}, {"author": "Ted Hardie", "text": "I wrote a very idiosyncratic view of why the interop failed during the creation of PDIF and CPIM: <a href=\"https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p6-hardie-IMPPCautionaryTale.pdf\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2019/05/p6-hardie-IMPPCautionaryTale.pdf</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;The situation may be different now.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:53:19Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "@Hang Shi: I believe Facebook is, not sure about WhatsApp.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:53:32Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Lennox", "text": "UMA by analogy to UTA?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:53:45Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "it would be really good to understand how this approach differs from that the sframe WG is considering.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:53:50Z"}, {"author": "Bron Gondwana", "text": "Martin: will you bring that to the mic?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:54:51Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "@Murray: s/is,/is/ :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:55:05Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin Schwartz", "text": "mic: Why is this described as being like MIME instead of ALPN?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:55:30Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "Ben I am in the queue to relay your question<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:56:10Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin Schwartz", "text": "Thank you<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:56:16Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "I'll bring my comment to the mic, but I expect that Richard will cover it for all of us<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:56:18Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "I see that Rohan's pull request has a few comments.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:56:28Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "I'm not as pessimistic as Harald.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:56:53Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Users tend to force semantics eventually.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:57:21Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "yep<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:58:18Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "+1 rlb<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T09:59:07Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "+1 to have more people in the room too.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:00:03Z"}, {"author": "Suhas Nandakumar", "text": "+1 on bof and how and where something like this should go<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:00:15Z"}, {"author": "Ted Hardie", "text": "Agreed; a BoF for this seems like it might be the right next step.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:00:17Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "Richard you mean non-wg forming BoF?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:00:21Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "(to start with at least)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:00:35Z"}, {"author": "Jon Peterson", "text": "bof seems reasonable<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:00:37Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Pete: yeah, but \"eventually\" is often a really long time, especially when things are diverging while we wait for that to happen.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:01:04Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Does this jive with the MLS charter such that we could dispatch it there?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:01:41Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@murray: I agree with Rohan that MLS doesn't have enough of the right humans. BoF a new WG seems prudent.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:02:26Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "@Murray we might have to extend the MLS charter to do the inner-content extension, but it wouldn't be crazy<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:02:44Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "chairs: q flush time?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:02:59Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "we should definitely not design a new interoperable messaging system in the MLS WG :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:03:02Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "We can't prevent people from building closed ecosystems from open specifications<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:03:10Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "-1 PHB perfect enemy of the good<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:03:14Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "I'd back a BoF if that's the consensus here.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:03:25Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "incremental development of interop<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:03:30Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@richard, no, interop is tablke stakes not the perfect<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:03:48Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "I'll let the chairs make that call though :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:03:51Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "I am noting all the support for a BoF in Jabber<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:04:12Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "What we can do is define open interfaces / protocols / formats and a regulator, legislator or court can force interoperability using it.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:04:27Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "BoF ++<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:04:39Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@mnot, of course for certain parties, regulation is on its way.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:05:25Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "the inner-content-type one is basically ALPN for MLS<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:05:37Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "For many, I thnk.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:05:38Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "I don't see how ALPN makes sense here, though use of MLS to establish a PSK is ... interesting.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:05:47Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "MIME media types are basically protocol labels, right?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:06:06Z"}, {"author": "Jon Peterson", "text": "bof focused on prob statement with eye to wg forming?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:06:37Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "+1 Jon<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:06:48Z"}, {"author": "Alissa Cooper", "text": "I suspect with some planning time a wg-forming bof could succeed. Doesn't seem like this work scope fits in an existing WG.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:06:53Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "rohan - did you mean pete?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:06:58Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "jon yeah, if this takes two rounds, that would be too long<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:06:59Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "@cooper +1<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:07:06Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "er, coopdanger<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:07:20Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "Really a separate discussion, but expecting the regulators to force interoperability is the end of the IETF, and probably the end of some vendors in their current form.&nbsp;&nbsp;Wanting to go there is probably unwise.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:07:31Z"}, {"author": "jhoyla", "text": "+1 for standardising the use of exporters, if you want to allow formal analysis of the upper layer you need certain guarantees on the use of exporters.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:07:41Z"}, {"author": "hta", "text": "WG forming BOF seems right to me.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:07:44Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "@JcK - didn't say want (although in some universe, they'd regulate wisely and improve things)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:08:28Z"}, {"author": "Ben Campbell", "text": "+1 on wg forming BoF<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:08:29Z"}, {"author": "Alissa Cooper", "text": "@jck some of them are already there -- best to have IETF-defined interfaces that can be pointed to<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:08:50Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Exactly.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:09:00Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "@jck cf. FCC requirements for STIR<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:09:05Z"}, {"author": "hta", "text": "if you see 10 regulations coming, 9 of them will hit the ditch before they reach you - but the 10th WILL hit you, with lots of interesting side effects.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:09:25Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "EU Data Act is eye-opening<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:09:37Z"}, {"author": "hta", "text": "mnot: which of them?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:09:52Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin Schwartz", "text": "I mentioned ALPN because it seems like it's not sufficient to model this as an unstructured collection of atomic messages; it's more like an interactive protocol<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:09:56Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "that's the name<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:09:59Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@Alissa, that is my assessment. Libertarian objections to regulation are besides the point when there is a bipartisan objection to Facebook in the EU and US.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:10:08Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "I meant Facebook is involved in MLS, not necessarily this new work in particular.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:10:15Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "not the DSA or DMA<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:10:17Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@murray: Awww, I was hopeful. Fingers crossed.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:11:07Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "Sure.&nbsp;&nbsp;But.. STIR is an extension of the FCC's traditional PSTN role.&nbsp;&nbsp;And, if we want to point them to IETF foundations, those foundations had best support the sort of user-level interop than PHB was talking about.&nbsp;&nbsp;And +1 to Harald.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:11:42Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "I think I can safely say that somebody from every major messaging platform has attended one MLS meeting or another. We try not to hold their feet to the fire WRT whether they are going to implement.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:12:27Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "Having been involved (in a different life) in attempts to standardize nutrient labels internationally, seeing that as a good analogy is scary.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:16:05Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "\"Ethics\" is a really unfortunate word choice here<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:17:03Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "If this proposal is plausible, it is precisely because of the differences.&nbsp;&nbsp;(and @Richard, +1)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:17:33Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "Digital Ingredients<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:17:36Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "Everyone that displays ads for a living is really going to hate this <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:17:49Z"}, {"author": "Samuel Weiler", "text": "jck: D.O.C. --&gt; CA/B Forum?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:17:57Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "I'll bring this up at the mic, but this is mixing a bunch of stuff that needs separating before it can really be dispatched: Data formats, signing, regulation, semantics.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:18:00Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "Michael Baum attempted to do something of the sort in the 90s. <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:18:04Z"}, {"author": "Alissa Cooper", "text": "Thinking of the many attempts at machine-readable privacy policies that failed, and how much more complicated this is.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:18:11Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "It is a hard problem<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:18:17Z"}, {"author": "cabo", "text": "Note that SCITT would probably solve the provenance chain part.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:18:28Z"}, {"author": "Ted Hardie", "text": "This is basically imagining a whole ecosystem, from verifiers into visual symbols.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:18:43Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "Open Disclosure Protocol?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:18:50Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@ted: Yep.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:18:55Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "It's a big vision - what, if anything, could be distilled into IETF space?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:19:05Z"}, {"author": "Ted Hardie", "text": "It's an enormous amount of work and the spoofability and falsifiability issues are so broad after the work, it's not clear it would be at all useful.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:19:17Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "The draft is as ocean-boiling as this presentation is.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:19:35Z"}, {"author": "cabo", "text": "The SCITT part: <a href=\"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-scitt-architecture/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-scitt-architecture/</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:19:43Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "The fact that Regulator is in that cycle does help<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:19:44Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Reminds me a bit of the BIMI work, which was an email authentication thing we BoFed a while ago.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:19:53Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "because they have teeth to make sure something reasonable is done<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:19:55Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "Murray: BIMI might come back at Philly<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:20:16Z"}, {"author": "Massimiliano Pala", "text": "Very interesting idea - maybe backing it up with a trust infrastructure that allows bad \"self-attesters\" to be identified could be useful (also for aggregation)?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:20:19Z"}, {"author": "jhoyla", "text": "If there is a regulator involved then this could be useful, but I agree that this seems like a huge piece of work.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:20:27Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "@bron: Oh yeah?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:20:35Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin BILLON", "text": "this is fascinating<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:20:40Z"}, {"author": "Hans-J\u00f6rg Happel", "text": "Might be slightly related to DOAP (Description of a Project) format<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:20:58Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@brong.&nbsp;&nbsp;And some experience indicates that, when one tries to do things like this across national/regional boundaries, they use those teeth to bite each other and the users.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:21:10Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "AD-sponsor: No chance.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:21:12Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "I don't think STIR would have happened without it being required by regulation. One of the reasons it could get required by regulation is that pretty much the number one feedback from voters to many phone regulators was \"stop the SPAM calls\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:21:22Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "yeah, no way AD<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:21:24Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "@barry: +(large number)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:21:24Z"}, {"author": "Mike Bishop", "text": "He gave me a moment of hope that there was a concrete piece he wanted to bring to the IETF after all that.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:22:02Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "nikita, I'm getting a lot of echo from you<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:22:32Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@cullen, in this case, I expect that it will be FaceBook that gets the idea of offering interoperable messaging to avoid being forced to divest the messaging businesses. <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:23:07Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "Please bear in mind that often dispatch is the first touchpoint for newcomers to IETF, so share your view on how this work could proceed (if you think it could) with that in mind<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:23:33Z"}, {"author": "jhoyla", "text": "If we assume that ethics are held by some to be relative, then is it possible that a language exists that captures different cases under different ethical frameworks?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:23:54Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "another appeal to nikita to mute<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:25:50Z"}, {"author": "Alissa Cooper", "text": "The ecosystem-building part of this seems like it needs to take place in another org outside the IETF.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:26:03Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "@chairs / nikita - please mute nikita when someone is at the mike<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:26:08Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin Schwartz", "text": "Dispatch to W3C<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:26:13Z"}, {"author": "Samuel Weiler", "text": "cruel....<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:26:24Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "Sorry, we are balancing a lot with Jabber, virtual and in-person... bear with us.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:26:44Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "but fail<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:26:54Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "@phb - a ton of companies that use Slack, Cisco, Microsoft, etc&nbsp;&nbsp;for messaging have been giving a strong message to their vendors that they want stuff to work between companies using different systems. Not clear how much they care about E2E but I do <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:26:57Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "fair &lt;\u2014 what a great typo<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:27:03Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin BILLON", "text": "you're doing well though, Kirsty!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:27:12Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "+1<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:27:22Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "Thanks Benjamin :) Bron is doing a solid job standing in too!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:28:03Z"}, {"author": "Mike Bishop", "text": "Side-question:&nbsp;&nbsp;What is the difference between \"on-site\" and \"lite\" in the participant list?&nbsp;&nbsp;I thought the \"lite\" client was for on-site use?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:28:44Z"}, {"author": "Deb Cooley", "text": "That is correct.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:29:17Z"}, {"author": "Deb Cooley", "text": "but it is very stripped down - hand raising and notes/slides only<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:29:41Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Lennox", "text": "on-site means you're using the full client on your laptop on-site.&nbsp;&nbsp;I'm using it, for instance, to see the chat<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:29:57Z"}, {"author": "Deb Cooley", "text": "+1<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:30:07Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "you can use the \"remote\" version of meetecho but you need to keep muted, not share video, mute your audio.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:30:16Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "lite is really meant for phone - minimal functions not including chat and slides sharing on phone<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:30:40Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "The thin onsite client also has \"show of hands\" participation, but for the rest it's correct: it only allows you to join the queue, and also allows you to control slides from your phone when presenting if you want<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:31:42Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Lennox", "text": "Meetecho: is there any way in-UI to mute the full client, or do I need to do it from the browser (mute tab) or system?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:32:18Z"}, {"author": "jhoyla", "text": "I think the problem is impossible, because at the end of the day the things you want to capture will need to be described on the wire, and such a description is impossible.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:32:38Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "Jonathan: you can use the icon in the bottom right for that<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:32:51Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Lennox", "text": "Ah! Thank you!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:33:13Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@cullen, the history of comms systems is that network effects inevitably squeeze users into one near monopoly provider. At which point ever other provider had better work out how to interoperate or expect to lose.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:34:01Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Aside: Does Meetecho have any keyboard shortcuts defined? I can't see any tooltips or accessibility options.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:34:08Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "mnot: the only shortcuts we have currently is when you're presenting slides, where you can use e.g. arrow icons to advance them<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:35:07Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Meetecho: It would be very cool if there were shortcuts for raise hand / (un)mute / video control / etc.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:35:41Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Also switching between different views.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:36:00Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Meetecho: don't know if you've noticed but remotely, if I set my volume to not be blasted out of the room by remote and room-mic participants, Kristy is often nearly inaudible.&nbsp;&nbsp; Don't know if that is a problem with the chair mic, her not being close enough to it, or some possible adjustment that isn't quite right, but it is a problem.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:36:14Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "mnot: that makes a lot of sense, we'll add it to the todo list, thanks for the tip!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:36:15Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "uh xmpp:<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:36:30Z"}, {"author": "lucasp", "text": "press f to pay respects<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:36:52Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "^^<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:36:57Z"}, {"author": "jhoyla", "text": "mnot You could try using Vimperator/Vimium?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:37:20Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": ":wq!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:37:33Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "ZZ<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:37:37Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "John C Klensin: do let us know if it's still an issue later, it sounded fine here before<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:37:41Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "@phb, the pendulum swings back and forth. Once you have two or three dominant vendors/systems, large customers start to ask for interoperability between/among them. <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:38:09Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "&lt;ESC&gt;:q!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:38:18Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "CTRL-ALT-DEL<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:38:27Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "We are *not* being asked to dispatch this, right?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:38:42Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "][][][<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:38:48Z"}, {"author": "Samuel Weiler", "text": "is he trying to reinvent multicast?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:38:50Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Pete: correct<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:38:50Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "We are in ART area meeting now :-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:38:56Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "what are we being asked for here?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:39:05Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "i think he's reinventing BEEP<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:39:12Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Oh dear that was an interesting little split<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:39:13Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@Cullen yep it's ART now<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:39:20Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "oh, this picture has words on it<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:39:43Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "We are being asked to join his side meeting on Wednesday 16:00.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:39:46Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "Is this the stuff mnot put on his blog about the need for pub/sub in HTTP ? <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:40:19Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "it's related<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:40:32Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "Yes, this is just for information. There was a failed BoF request (linked on the agenda for this meeting) for your info.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:40:33Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "Invisible words.&nbsp;&nbsp;We need a slide interoperability protocol that won't allow them to be displayed if the type is too small to read&nbsp;&nbsp;:-(<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:40:55Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "also a speaker protocol which doesn't allow them to speak if their voice is too unclear<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:41:21Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "slides are also here: <a href=\"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-113-dispatch-event-streaming-open-network/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-113-dispatch-event-streaming-open-network/</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:41:36Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "Atom?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:41:38Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "Actually this is the seems like pretty much exactly problem that the secure credential transfer BOF people want to solve <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:41:38Z"}, {"author": "brong", "text": "and a topic filter which doesn't allow suggesting of insufficiently fleshed out topics :p<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:41:42Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "cullen, I don't think that is the case<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:42:13Z"}, {"author": "jhoyla", "text": "Martin Thomson_web_331 Sounds like kanji. Or is that \"Oh this word has pictures on it?\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:42:15Z"}, {"author": "lucasp", "text": "oh I'm reminded of <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Distribution_Service\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Distribution_Service</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:42:22Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "secure credential transfer is about using an online store to hold something temporarily, this is about setting up flows of data<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:42:50Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "every protocol looks like an event stream if you tilt your head right<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:42:59Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Are any of those implementations represented in these discussions?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:43:04Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Richard: ow<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:43:10Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Kristy: yes, and I pulled that up.&nbsp;&nbsp;Still hard to read ... and I'm obviously getting too old but the number of different frames I'm now expected to follow at a time&nbsp;&nbsp;is exceeding my capabilities.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:43:32Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "@mt ... I was going to tell you \"change my mind\". But uh, yah, I buy what you are saying. Mind changed. <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:43:42Z"}, {"author": "Hang Shi", "text": "Is this the pub/sub scheme?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:44:34Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "@HangShi - looks like it<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:44:47Z"}, {"author": "jhoyla", "text": "I think you could implement an SKI machine with these flow processors.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:47:18Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "The Acknowledgements section of the draft explains certain things: <a href=\"https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-spinella-event-streaming-open-network-02.html#name-acknowledgments-2\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-spinella-event-streaming-open-network-02.html#name-acknowledgments-2</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:47:28Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Good summary.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:50:32Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "+1<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:50:37Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Meetecho: problem continuing.&nbsp;&nbsp;Let's talk about it later.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:50:55Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Francesca has a few things.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:50:55Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Replay's not a new problem, wonder why it's suddenly critical<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:54:09Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "these things come in waves<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:54:27Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Guess so<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:54:32Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "Adding a header field that aligns with envelope breaks bcc confidentiality<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:54:54Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Every time these discussions happen, it makes me want to cry.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:55:57Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Architectural mess.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:56:09Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Yeah.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:56:20Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "I'd probably rather DMARC deal with this.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:56:31Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "\"Please fix this, but don't change anything we've done in the past.\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:56:49Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "...said the entire Mailman user base.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:57:06Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": ":heart:<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:57:23Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "...and the entire DMARC user base.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:57:37Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Cue John Levine saying something about \"for decades\".<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:57:59Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": ";)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:58:07Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "Interesting to hear that message/external-body seems to be coming back after a mere 30 years :-(<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:58:46Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@jck: Wondering if some of the LEMONADE work will come up as well.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:59:26Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "ADSP actually went through the DKIM WG<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:59:31Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Yeah.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:59:38Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "After 30 years of IETF, my acronym dictionary has filled up. I have no more slots left. <br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T10:59:47Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Lennox", "text": "Need acronym NAT<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:00:08Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "The bullet point on reusing Content-Digest from HTTP makes me a bit nervous - HTTP is not MIME\u2026<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:00:10Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "Barry is formerly chair of DMARC? Has something changed?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:00:20Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "There are so many nice parameters of message/external-body. having a signature which covers all of them......<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:00:21Z"}, {"author": "Martin Thomson", "text": "time<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:00:26Z"}, {"author": "Kirsty Paine", "text": "aware<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:00:30Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Jim: He said he chaired DKIM.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:00:37Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "THanks<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:00:43Z"}, {"author": "Francesca Palombini", "text": "Big thank you to the chairs and minutes takers!!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:01:03Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin BILLON", "text": "Thanks y'all! And especially Kirsty and Bron!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:01:09Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "thanks!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:01:16Z"}, {"author": "Murray Kucherawy", "text": "Congrats, sad I'm not there in person!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:01:32Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "Thanks to the chairs for managing a hybrid meeting!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:01:35Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "Jim, I think you mis-heard: I did say \"DKIM working group\", not \"DMARC\".<br/>", "time": "2022-03-21T11:01:38Z"}]