[{"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "remote audio is not great<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:04:18Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "workable, but...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:04:26Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "+1 robert<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:04:27Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "Checking<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:04:32Z"}, {"author": "Jared Mauch", "text": "hmm, sounds good in the room<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:04:38Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "it sounds like the mic is far away from mirja<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:05:07Z"}, {"author": "Scott Mansfield", "text": "What mnot said<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:06:13Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "that is better<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:06:37Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "(sounds like there's also reverberation in the room, but probably not much we can do about that)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:06:55Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "Trance Music! Oh.. wrong acronym<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:06:57Z"}, {"author": "Jari Arkko", "text": "I still get pretty choppy voice. I can understand everything, no major issue.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:07:37Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "3552 was in fact an IAB document<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:08:44Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "But also given that this talk about updating it has been happening since before I was AD, I think it's time to declare failure on it<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:09:14Z"}, {"author": "Jari Arkko", "text": "3552 is a BCP which the IAB currently couldn't change (or at least, it would take IETF consensus to do and of course we'd want IETF consensus).<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:11:10Z"}, {"author": "Jared Mauch", "text": "I assume remote audio is still there<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:11:13Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "A lot of people worked very hard.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:11:24Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "so far...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:11:27Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "Yes, we're working on the audio issue mentioned before<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:11:41Z"}, {"author": "Jared Mauch", "text": "thanks @meetecho!!!!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:11:52Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "really hard to hear the mic line remote<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:17:36Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "He's not speaking close enough to the mic, apparently<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:17:50Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "The previous speaker sounded better<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:18:01Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "Depends on the speaker.&nbsp;&nbsp;Liman is too tall for the mic<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:18:08Z"}, {"author": "Suzanne Woolf", "text": "Both the IETF and ICANN have to coordinate on the special/private use names issue, or at least not be at cross-purposes. That might be the only thing that's really come of years of discussion in ICANN-land and DNSOP.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:18:09Z"}, {"author": "Cullen Jennings", "text": "@jck - thanks - that makes sense now <br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:18:47Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "I had to lookup homophilic. Does it means someone who loves himself, some kind of decease?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:25:43Z"}, {"author": "Jari Arkko", "text": "FWIW, this was a wonderful workshop. So much going on, many new tools and opportunities, lots of ideas, putting people who didn't know about each other together, stuff happening and not just talking... well done Niels and team! Maybe food for thought also for future events.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:26:02Z"}, {"author": "dkg", "text": "Christian: i'd appreciate the clarification as well, think it has to do with people who work mainly with other people similar to themselves.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:27:44Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "<a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophily\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophily</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:28:37Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "Aka, inhaling your own smoke. Yes, I suspect it is easy to fall in that trap.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:28:50Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "yes - moar<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:30:33Z"}, {"author": "Olaf Kolkman", "text": "Can the volume on the microphone in the room be cranked up a bit.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:30:36Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@meetecho ^^^^<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:30:55Z"}, {"author": "Jared Mauch", "text": "we cut the queue due to the centralization discussion next which we expect to take up the rest of the time<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:30:58Z"}, {"author": "Alissa Cooper", "text": "Curious if any of the participants are aware if there are similar workshop activities happening focused on any other SDOs that the IETF liaises with<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:31:30Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "We can try increasing the room volume for remotes but that may risk generating echo for remotes: we'll fine tune them in the break<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:32:34Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "concept of an api into mailarchive was kicked about<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:32:39Z"}, {"author": "Antoine Fressancourt", "text": "Are there GDPR considerations on the use of the data to raise (because people participating in mailing lists etc might need to be informed that their data is used for research purposes and might want to modify their data)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:33:37Z"}, {"author": "dkg", "text": "i never understood why the mailarchive requires login to retrieve a bundle of archived messages.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:34:31Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "@Alissa <a href=\"http://www.legalscholarshipblog.com/2020/02/19/cpf-conf-second-annual-research-workshop-and-conference-on-standardization-chicago-il/\" rel=\"nofollow\">http://www.legalscholarshipblog.com/2020/02/19/cpf-conf-second-annual-research-workshop-and-conference-on-standardization-chicago-il/</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:34:35Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "There is quite some work on 3GPP data, for instance by Justus Baron<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:34:52Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "@antoine: note well points to <a href=\"https://www.ietf.org/privacy-statement/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.ietf.org/privacy-statement/</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:34:54Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@Antoine: Does not the Note Well serve as notice?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:35:08Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "@dkg - lets talk<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:35:19Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "@Antoine Fressancourt - GDPR has a carve out for research purposes. For the BigBang web version we are now going through a full compliance process for that. More info on that soon.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:35:39Z"}, {"author": "Luigi Iannone", "text": "@Pete: notice is not enough with GDPR, but the registration action itself can serve as explicit consent.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:36:15Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "There are many aspects to centralization. Some are a lot more damaging than others. The chief concern for me is not 'decentralization' but enabling interoperation and eliminating switching costs<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:36:26Z"}, {"author": "Antoine Fressancourt", "text": "@lars, I will look deeper in note well, my point is that GDPR states that users need to be explicitly informed on what their info is used for (purpose aspects of the ruling)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:37:21Z"}, {"author": "Alissa Cooper", "text": "@niels thanks, was aware of his work but it seems there is a broader community<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:37:54Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "@antoine our legal counsel looked into this, and current practice was deemed ok. can talk more offline<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:37:56Z"}, {"author": "Antoine Fressancourt", "text": "@Niels Thanks for your note !<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:38:00Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "Well note that this information is public so it's not possible for the IETF to practically describe how the data will be used, as it does not really know<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:38:13Z"}, {"author": "dkg", "text": "how are you aggregating CDIs?&nbsp;&nbsp;for example, does youtube count as part of google?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:39:35Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Hm, his video has frozen for me<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:39:56Z"}, {"author": "Jared Mauch", "text": "still live in the room<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:40:05Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "How you count these things is the big question<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:40:07Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "still live for me (remote)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:40:12Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "probably me then<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:40:21Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "mnot: you can hit the pause icon on top of his video, and then the icon to restore it, which will recreate the stream<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:40:48Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "@Alissa - indeed. The group is slowly growing. One part of that is that the tools are becoming easier to use and data better available. I think having a webversion of BigBang will attract many more researchers, definitely from social sciences.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:45:39Z"}, {"author": "Trinh Viet Doan", "text": "@dkg Yes, YouTube would count towards Google in our study. However, note that we only cover landing webpages for the most part, so individual pages of videos are not included<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:46:17Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Is \"component linkages\" a euphemism for vertical inetgration?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:47:23Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "Do you have any thoughts on why this data is so different from the market share of various cloud vendors, where Amazon and Azure are much bigger than Google?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:47:24Z"}, {"author": "Trinh Viet Doan", "text": "@mnot We count based on a mix of AS, CNAME, and HTTP header mappings and patterns. If they match to a CDI, we count it as \"CDI-hosted\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:47:31Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Right, but my point is more whether just counting them is the right metric<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:47:52Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "I'd say there need to be a proliferation of metrics given how complicated the issues is<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:48:27Z"}, {"author": "Jari Arkko", "text": "We for sure can't change the whole world in this or fight economics... but we can and should discuss and be aware (documents), measure (research), and look at the ways that technical systems can to some extent influence things (mark's guidelines etc)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:50:04Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Mallory: I think that would help. E.g., traffic, number of customers, number of users, etc. Those things are harder to find than counting hostnames, of course.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:50:24Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Jari: yes, be aware, but we shouldn't try to speak authoritatively there<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:50:38Z"}, {"author": "Dominique Lazanski", "text": "<a href=\"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-consolidation/\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lazanski-consolidation/</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:51:46Z"}, {"author": "Dominique Lazanski", "text": "Oh ok Eliot! Sorry!!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:51:52Z"}, {"author": "Russ White", "text": "Jared and I are working on a draft about protocol consolidation ... I'm working on an initial version if anyone would like to work on it with us<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:52:10Z"}, {"author": "Dominique Lazanski", "text": "Ah! Cool. Yes I'd be interested. @russ<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:52:28Z"}, {"author": "Russ White", "text": "can you send me an email? russ@riw.us ... thanks :-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:52:46Z"}, {"author": "Dominique Lazanski", "text": "great<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:52:50Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "Depending on what you mean about protocol consolidation, it's not clear it's a bad thing. Indeed, arguably consolidating protocols (N proprietary protocols to 1 standard one) is the objective of IETF<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:53:07Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "<a href=\"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2021-dinrg-01/materials/minutes-interim-2021-dinrg-01-202106031900-04.html\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2021-dinrg-01/materials/minutes-interim-2021-dinrg-01-202106031900-04.html</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:53:21Z"}, {"author": "Jari Arkko", "text": "In addition to the DINRG link, there was also the ISOC-sponsored journal of cyberpolicy issue: <a href=\"https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/rcyb20/5/1?nav=tocList\" rel=\"nofollow\">https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/rcyb20/5/1?nav=tocList</a><br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:54:05Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "@ekr- one thing I like about Mark's draft is that he talks about different forms of centralization.&nbsp;&nbsp;I am confident there are others.&nbsp;&nbsp;And they interact with one another!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:54:46Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "Well, I don't think it's a good idea to use \"centralization\" to describe standardization on protocols<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:55:27Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "I don't think we should push too hard to consolidate drafts on the centralization topic; there are a bunch of different angles at which people are looking at the issues. Let a thousand flowers bloom on this topic.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:55:43Z"}, {"author": "Jari Arkko", "text": "@ekr agree that just using the same protocol is not necessarily bad. we all use IP/IPv6 for instance. The issue more about creating these commercial islands that you can't really connect to or work with from outside, even if you use the same protocol.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:55:49Z"}, {"author": "Jari Arkko", "text": "+1 Pete<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:56:00Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Lennox", "text": "Pete: so you're saying we shouldn't centralize centralization?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:56:09Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "heh<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:56:14Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "@Jari: yes, that's been happening for years (e.g., SIP) but it's pretty hard for the IETF to do much about it<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:56:28Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "@ekr, early work et al and at WEIS talks about standardization as a risk.&nbsp;&nbsp;I can see if I can dig up a reference (this is around 2006 or so)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:56:37Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "that doesn't mean that standardization is bad, by the way.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:57:01Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "Of course, the point PHB is making is, in slightly different guise, the original justificaiton for standards (or any type).<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:57:06Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "I gave a presentation last month on stuff that's closer to PHB's topic (though again, at a slightly different angle). If we start combining all of this stuff, we'll have a very nice book, but a lousy draft.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:57:17Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@ekr agree that consolidation onto a single protocol isn\u2019t necessarily bad, unless of course the protocol helps move traffic onto fewer platforms, carriers etc<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:57:17Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "@Eliot: I've read some papers of that type, though I don't know the one you're talking about, but I remember not finding them very convincing<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:57:21Z"}, {"author": "dkg", "text": "phb: how is publication distinct from curation?&nbsp;&nbsp;we live in an age of information overload<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:57:24Z"}, {"author": "Vaibhav Bajpai", "text": "@mnot - agree, traffic and subscriber counts would add richness to the consolidation analysis. Unfortunately, such data is not available in public domain, we are happy to analyse if folks are willing to share such data with us. (one of the co-authors of the paper)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:57:33Z"}, {"author": "Jari Arkko", "text": "But Eliot the link would be nice to see, will try to read it<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:57:39Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "most of these papers are epidemiological in nature.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:58:00Z"}, {"author": "Russ White", "text": "IP is layered ... some layers really need to be reduced to one protocol, while others really should be broad sets of protocols ... it seems the tendency right now is towards a narrow stack bottom to top<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:58:14Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "I'm finding links into many different fields<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:58:22Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "governance, modularity theory, international relations, etc.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:58:33Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "@Russ: I actually don't think that's accurate. It's just that all of those protocols are hosted on top of HTTP<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:58:49Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@dkg, Publication: Let Trump say anything he likes on his Medium pages.<br/>Curation: Let me decide that I do not want to see anything from Trump, directly or indirectly no matter how much he or one of his supporters want to wave it in my face.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:58:51Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "And are proprietary to the client and server<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:59:06Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "using terms like 'market concentration' and 'market share' are misleading here, for the reasons discussed above. <br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:59:13Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "You may recall JDR talking about \"post-standardization\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:59:20Z"}, {"author": "Russ White", "text": "@ekr I'm not certain it's a \"good thing\" for \"all those things to be replaced by https\" ...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:59:48Z"}, {"author": "dkg", "text": "phb: given the complex web of legal jurisdictions, it's not clear that any platform/publisher can afford to permit arbitrary content to the extent that they can themselves see the content<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T12:59:59Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "RIPE had a preso on HHI applied to the internet 10-15y ago<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:00:00Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@mnot: +1. There's got to be better terminology for this space.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:00:06Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "@iab, @all, my hope is that one outcome of this discussion will be a statement of the correct forum to continue the conversation<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:00:11Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "Russ, I'm not saying it is or is not a good thing. I'm saying it's the shape of the situation<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:00:12Z"}, {"author": "Jari Arkko", "text": "Carl et al: thank you very much for doing this work at ISOC<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:00:15Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "@George: yes that was work done by Karrenburg and Vest<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:00:29Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "Is anyone aware of a literature review on consolidation in transit and network market?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:00:46Z"}, {"author": "Dominique Lazanski", "text": "Thank you!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:00:58Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "Thanks all<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:01:00Z"}, {"author": "ekr@jabber.org", "text": "But essentially every mobile app you see has its own little protocol that it uses, except that they call them \"Web APIs\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:01:01Z"}, {"author": "Trinh Viet Doan", "text": "Thanks everyone!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:01:06Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "thanks all<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:01:13Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@dkg: If there are no switching costs, Trump can find a publisher which will publish his material provided that it is not actually criminal by international standards (i.e. child abuse).<br/>", "time": "2022-03-24T13:01:18Z"}]