[{"author": "Jeff Tantsura", "text": "2nd :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:03:43Z"}, {"author": "Charles Eckel", "text": "why is the topic in the chat IETF 112?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:04:39Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "back to the future I guess ...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:05:14Z"}, {"author": "John Scudder", "text": "@meetecho, pink box is not on camera?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:07:48Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "clap, clap, thanks Martin &amp; welcome Andrew ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:07:50Z"}, {"author": "~~dhruv~~dhody~~", "text": "Topic IETF-113 is set :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:08:08Z"}, {"author": "~~dhruv~~dhody~~", "text": "Thanks Martin!!! <br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:08:23Z"}, {"author": "Ketan Talaulikar", "text": "Thanks Martin<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:08:26Z"}, {"author": "Vishnu Beeram", "text": "Thanks, Martin!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:08:40Z"}, {"author": "Jeff Tantsura", "text": "Thanks Martin!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:08:42Z"}, {"author": "Darren Dukes", "text": "Thanks Martin!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:08:44Z"}, {"author": "Bruno Decraene", "text": "Thanks Martin<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:09:02Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "yepp, great work on Babel<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:09:06Z"}, {"author": "~~dhruv~~dhody~~", "text": "**clap**<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:10:52Z"}, {"author": "Julien Meuric", "text": "clap, clap, clap<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:11:04Z"}, {"author": "Haomian Zheng", "text": "Thanks Martin!!!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:11:47Z"}, {"author": "Vishnu Beeram", "text": "Welcome, Andrew!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:12:22Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Rabadan", "text": "Thank you Martin!! amazing job!!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:13:06Z"}, {"author": "Jie Dong", "text": "Thanks Martin! Welcome, Andrew!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:13:45Z"}, {"author": "Ketan Talaulikar", "text": "Welcome Andrew<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:13:58Z"}, {"author": "~~dhruv~~dhody~~", "text": "Looking forward to working with you Andrew! Welcome and all the best!!!&nbsp;&nbsp;<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:14:22Z"}, {"author": "John Scudder", "text": "buy alvaro a few drinks and he will tell you all the inside info about being an AD<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:15:48Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "audio stutter<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:23:53Z"}, {"author": "Gunter Van de Velde", "text": "audio issue<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:24:05Z"}, {"author": "Julien Meuric", "text": "Yep<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:24:05Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "ok so that's not me :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:24:08Z"}, {"author": "Acee Lindem", "text": "Note that YANG is an acronym and shouldn't be capitalized. <br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:32:23Z"}, {"author": "Acee Lindem", "text": "I mean should be capitalized as opposed to Yang.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:32:37Z"}, {"author": "Jeff Tantsura", "text": "@acee - let's respin ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:36:57Z"}, {"author": "Acee Lindem", "text": "@jeff Daniele has it right...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:49:47Z"}, {"author": "Dhruv Dhody", "text": "I2RS's RFC 8445 mentioned that Inventory models might be developed and kept it under the Abstract Network Model! Now, what should be the home for this kind of work : OPSAWG maybe?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:53:11Z"}, {"author": "John Scudder", "text": "did you want to make that q at the mic<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:53:39Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "Not RTG, that's clear<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:53:39Z"}, {"author": "Lou Berger", "text": "WRT network inventory -- maybe start in rtgwg, then augment as needed<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:53:43Z"}, {"author": "Jeff Tantsura", "text": "@Lou - make sense, since we were finishing&nbsp;&nbsp;I2RS work<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:54:36Z"}, {"author": "Haomian Zheng", "text": "@Dhruv, I think you mean RFC8345?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:56:05Z"}, {"author": "Dhruv Dhody", "text": "Yes - thats for keeping me honest! (When will I remember all the RFC numbers)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T09:56:44Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "it's actually not that hard to build a good satellite network simulation platform<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:06:06Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "aren't there extra starlink available? :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:06:27Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "Simulation doesn't teach you about the things that you don't know about.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:06:49Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "orbits can be computed &amp; vacuum is pretty decent in terms of quality of links ;-) since nothing's there ... stuff has been done in the 90s already<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:06:50Z"}, {"author": "Haomian Zheng", "text": "looking forward to see satelitte project in Hackathon:)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:07:08Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "from experience it actually holds up pretty well. but I didn't deal with 1000s of satellites ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:07:17Z"}, {"author": "John Scudder", "text": "single vertical provider, pun intended?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:07:42Z"}, {"author": "Lou Berger", "text": "think single vendor, early IGP analogy holds<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:07:54Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "i.e., kidding aside, it's a real answer too though right? Launch some extrra sats to use in testing<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:07:59Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "I doubt there is a standard needed ;-) different satellites do not talk to each other except for nefarious purposes ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:08:00Z"}, {"author": "Lou Berger", "text": "but does level the playing field<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:08:28Z"}, {"author": "Acee Lindem", "text": "That is what is new - the sheer number of LEO satellites and orbits to deal with and taking advantage of the predictability of these orbits. <br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:08:32Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "depending on satellite cmpany/type you find a lot of interesting/weird reqs as in how much memory beta hardened is to your disposal. com'on Lou, you've been in that stuff ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:09:08Z"}, {"author": "Louis Chan", "text": "but at least they need to agree on L1 channel connection first up in the sky<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:10:23Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "but yeah, RTGWG, the group that keeps on giving and finding new problems. maybe now the time ;-) Babel a decent candidate but I don't know how to you'd deal with orbit prediction except link state (unless you preload tables which was always my preferred thing ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:10:27Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "are none of the drafts presented from people that are doing the work then (I think that was Tony's point?)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:10:28Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "would be a lot more useful if people doing sat protocol work were the people bringing the sat protocol work to the ietf <br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:11:11Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "@Hoops: +1<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:11:24Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "More generally, it seems very strange for us to take on a purely academic project. We make progress because we are writing code, testing it, and operating it. In this case, we are 0 for 3.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:17:01Z"}, {"author": "Jeff Tantsura", "text": "AP for me - figure out who works on routing stuff in the satellite networking (I'm quite sure - I'll find familiar names/faces - small club) , starting with Starlink and invite to IETF, if anyone else can help - please do, let's talk.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:17:29Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "Expect them to decline.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:18:27Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I believe a bunch of IETF work which relates to LOON wound up being used to compute inter-sat paths efficiently<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:18:57Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "its possible because its L2 and below, people think \"wrong SDO\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:19:17Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "(I'm not saying its wrong SDO, I'm saying people Ideate it that way)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:19:49Z"}, {"author": "Boris Khasanov", "text": "Is IETF a right place for SCION discussions? Wondering why not IRTF.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:20:24Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "@George: AFAICT, there are three teams doing this, with no possibility of interoperability and no interest in standardization. Moreover, they seem to be actively competing, making cooperation contra-indicated.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:21:46Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "Call them three opposed SDOs.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:21:57Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "sad but believeable the return of IPR==value to protocol work does not make me happy<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:22:16Z"}, {"author": "John Scudder", "text": "SDO = Satellite Deployment Operations?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:22:26Z"}, {"author": "Jeff Tantsura", "text": "sadly - number of people in routing isn't really growing, just getting older, quantity -&gt; quality :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:22:30Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "@john puns.. the best form of humour after all the other ones.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:22:48Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "It's no longer new and sexy.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:22:53Z"}, {"author": "John Scudder", "text": "He who would pun would pick a pocket.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:23:08Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "so in SCION is AS assignment assumed to uplift from the current BGP? is that the only information leakage from the underlying \"forwarding plane\" ?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:23:51Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "(I assume it is an overlay)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:23:56Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "path in packet feels like LSR with sigs. So.. its \"out there\" from times past<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:24:38Z"}, {"author": "Jeff Tantsura", "text": "@tony - but we can start talking with Padma(AWS/ Kuiper) and few other well known routing folks<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:24:49Z"}, {"author": "Dan Voyer", "text": "we are trying to \"remove\" protocol or come up with a leaner protocol stack while growing APPs/function at the edge of the network or in \"the cloud\", that's where new people goes<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:24:52Z"}, {"author": "Zheng Zhang", "text": "does the SCION work look like inter-domain SFC?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:25:38Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I think \"its not an overlay\" is tendacious<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:27:21Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "open source doesn't sound too horrible<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:27:42Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I didnt see any \"bare channel\" implications in what he said, and there's the AS side of this. That implies a registry function or leverage of the existing deployment. Also, the fintech/banking world makes me think secure overlay in a closed domain<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:28:05Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "(I dont want to come across as too down on this. I dont think this IS irtf, its a real network in deployment)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:28:28Z"}, {"author": "John Scudder", "text": "my dictionary doesn't know the word \"tendacious\". Nor do I.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:28:35Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "tendentious<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:28:51Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "tendonitis<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:29:02Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "dont' let Tony P know they are using go though.. you'll get an earful about it's unsuitableness for protocol work :)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:29:22Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "\"tendentious\" as in \"having a tendency to have a tendency\" ?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:29:24Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "recursive, I like it. to be sure to be sure<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:29:42Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "The CPU collection is a bug.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:30:14Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "in the IETF \"wont work\" is usually code for \"I dont like it\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:30:33Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "you can write any protocol in any language in your bedroom ;-) Please do not try to connect it to anything done properly in commercial world running at non-neglectible scale. Having said that, I cheer all the folks doing BGP in Javascript ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:31:00Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "go is pretty, javascript, not so much.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:31:34Z"}, {"author": "Jeff Tantsura", "text": "pretty? try GoBGP with 1M EVPN routes ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:31:59Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "Trying to write a soft real-time system based on infrastructure without any kind of time guarantees, even pragmatic ones, is problematic.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:32:04Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "hmm. but he said SCION is pull not push, so what does withdraw mean?<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:32:07Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "beauty is famously in the eye ... I know people swearing PHP was the best language ever invented ;-) Before the stock went down I guess ...<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:32:08Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "I'm sad about go unsuitableness for real time application work.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:32:36Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "But seriously, Go has a good niche. Having talked to Ken whom I know people mistaking it for a system programming language was not something he considered ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:32:37Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I like formally verified. I think thats very nice<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:32:40Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "Folks you're free to rewrite it in Rust or Assembler (or FORTRAN), but we need those RFCs out first! ;-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:33:34Z"}, {"author": "Tony Przygienda", "text": "unfortunately, not practical in hard sense. But type algebra moved into a new direction there are very good languages coming out for system work who get close to formal verification in practical sense. I'm out, we're hijacking the chat<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:33:40Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": "Ok, that's my idea of an office.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:33:47Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "(I mean, SCION is formally verified. not go)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:34:47Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I am not hijacking the chat. I'm chatting the hijack<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:35:07Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "implicitly it has name-to-address discovery questions which imply use of the DNS<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:38:21Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "exlicitly it depends on ASN and I am going to hazard global unicast address assignment<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:38:35Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I can see they want to say its not an overlay always, but I think the inter-relationships are there<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:38:49Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "Quick responses to George from my (admittedly incomplete) understanding of SCION:<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:39:43Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "It would be seriously un-funny for a Fintech to go offline because exterior address processes reclaimed the IPs!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:39:54Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "much appreciate the response Simon.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:40:16Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "And, its a working network. I would not be saying this cannot fly, I'd be saying it makes strong assertions which have to be tested, but its interesting<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:40:39Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "SCION uses existing intra-domain routing and addressing, it only cares about INTER-domain routing, which it does based on ASes (AS granularity).<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:40:45Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "So addresses in SCION are of the form &lt;ASN&gt;:&lt;some-address-locally-relevant-inside-AS&gt;<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:41:15Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "Name-&gt;address resolution uses DNS or something very much like it.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:41:30Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "They had a I-Ds on a DNS variant called RAINS a while ago; I think this has evolved (renamed?) into RHINE lately.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:42:06Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "So addresses in SCION are of the form : [ASN]:[address-locally-valid-inside-that-AS]<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:43:34Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "(Sorry, my initial attempt had angle-brackets, which Meetecho doesn't like)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:43:54Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "does it eg bring inheritance of RPKI keys into the model? It might be both good and bad to do that, depending.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:44:26Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "SCION has its own PKI.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:44:45Z"}, {"author": "Simon Leinen", "text": "(Tailored to the application for routing.)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:45:08Z"}, {"author": "Russ White", "text": "bgpsec == &lt;blech&gt; ... not only undeployable, but would (probably) make the security situation worse, not better :-)<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:45:11Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "its a workable model, but it incurs belief in the self-assert \"I route these IPS\"<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:45:18Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "again, don;t want to come across as a knocker-downer.<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:45:36Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I think we should continue to see SCION in ietf and at NOG and RIR meetings!<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:45:51Z"}, {"author": "Jeff Tantsura", "text": "@russ - Job was clear - he's going to deploy it on his most \"important\" perrings<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:46:06Z"}, {"author": "Christian Hopps", "text": "if you leave the room you lose the chat<br/>", "time": "2022-03-23T10:47:31Z"}]