[{"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "(has no bar)
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:30:12Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "shmooting
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:30:27Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "note: it is Friday
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:31:16Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "@meetecho - lars is really faint
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:33:15Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Lars: you're very soft at the chair mic
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:33:22Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "ok. just don't do anything that requires me to say something :-)
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:35:24Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": ":D
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:35:55Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "you are actually ahead ;)
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:36:13Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "Lars, can you speak a bit closer to the mic later? That may help
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:36:42Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "will do
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:38:24Z"}, {"author": "Mirja K\u00fchlewind", "text": "This is in the charter: \"The cadence of meeting scheduling and the mix of in-person versus fully
online meetings going forward once the disruptions caused by the pandemic
have subsided.\"
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:41:39Z"}, {"author": "Mirja K\u00fchlewind", "text": "this was mostly meant to address the question about how many plenary meetings we want but it could be interpreted differently
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:42:02Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "I think calendar cadence is different than choosing the daily schedule.
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:42:42Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "having read over this doc (and trying to learn how to schedule better), I definitely think there are some tooling improvements that could be useful
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:44:25Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "like asking for different kinds of conflicts, general time zone, ongoing conflicts vs one-off conflicts, etc.
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:44:51Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "So my name was invoked as I walked in. Anything I have to worry about?
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:47:37Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "That draft is here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-shmoo-async/
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:47:45Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@pete - nice shoes ;)
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:48:12Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "heh
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:48:22Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "It's Weird Al I-D: eat the time zone, eat the time zone ...
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:49:56Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "The kind of poll I actually like.
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:51:04Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Is it unfair that I raised my hand simply to avoid having it come back to GenDispatch?
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:52:17Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "no
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:52:28Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": ":)
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:52:32Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "Thanks. Going to bed now.
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:52:43Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Goodnight
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:52:50Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "No idea what time it is there. is it even still today?
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:53:17Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "I'm hearing a little distortion on voice peaks. Are others hearing that, or is that a local problem for me?
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:53:22Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "it's Friday
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:53:23Z"}, {"author": "mnot", "text": "almost 1am
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:53:29Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "shots of mezcal and then bed
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:53:42Z"}, {"author": "Meetecho", "text": "We sent someone to the room to tune the in-room mixer
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:54:12Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Jim: I think it is probably local. Seems ok here -- or I've just gotten used to the distortions.
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:54:21Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "thanks!
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:54:22Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "this is a good question, and I think it's a clear answer: no, we can't continue with business as usual
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:54:46Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "regarding mnot's document, in my reading of the proposed new charter it would be in scope under bullet item 1 w/o the need of additional charter changes (convince me otherwise :-)
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:57:13Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "i'm with you, lars
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:57:28Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "if don't work on blockchain then ... :)
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:57:35Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "I didn't hear a suggestion that talking about travel emissions meant that we could not also discuss emissions of other sources/projects
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:58:20Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "+1, I would be interested in either a research group or working group on that topic
", "time": "2022-03-24T13:59:08Z"}, {"author": "Stephen McQuistin", "text": "was an interesting talk about this aspect at gaia this week: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/113/materials/slides-113-gaia-the-internet-and-environmental-sustainability-revolutionary-00
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:00:19Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "Maybe we can ISOC to do matching carbon offsets ;)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:00:59Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "(I don't think it's \"small fish\", and I don't think buying offsets from your airline is necessarily an effective response)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:01:09Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "@Richard, this was Rolf's draft that I remembered
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:01:40Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-winter-energy-efficient-internet-01
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:01:43Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "GAIA's networks in many ways are more ecologically/environmentally sustainable
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:01:58Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "@npd: I do not know one way or the other either
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:02:10Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "plant more trees perhaps?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:04:48Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "obligatory color accessibility complaint goes here
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:07:13Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "I must have missed something: what is 'not-arrived'?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:08:54Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Registered by didn't attend?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:09:07Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "makes sense
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:09:31Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "that confusion with the graph is likely: since the remote emissions are hypothetical, rather than actual, people will misunderstand
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:10:22Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "@npd: yes
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:10:30Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "I got confused too until Daniel explained
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:10:41Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "Maybe throw it on top and say \"emissions saved by remote participants\"
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:10:57Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "but that gets into Richard's comments
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:11:31Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "Trying to understand what that map of IETF CO2 vs per capita means
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:11:47Z"}, {"author": "Stephen McQuistin", "text": "yes, separating out remote participants is especially important for evaluating hybrid meetings
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:11:49Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "as to what are the emissions of the remote participation
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:11:56Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "I'm lost
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:12:23Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "@jim, I believe the map is just showing the per-capita emissions of people living in those countries. traveling to N number of IETF meetings generates that level of emissions (in addition to all the emissions from other activities in our lives)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:13:08Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "I'm sill uncomfortable with the way the emission per participant is calculated - as I understand it from previous conversations, it's using the airline industries rule of thumb for cost of a flight built by total-emission/number-passengers over a large period of time.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:13:09Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "Applying that to any subset of travelers by n-travelers * that-metric makes assumptions that worry me alot.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:13:47Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "Better
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:14:19Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": ":thumbsup:
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:14:54Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "I think Daniel has tried to give us more detail (in that github code) that isn't just per participant, but based on some likely flight paths from home country to the meeting country
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:15:24Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "yes but I still don't see (and I think it matters) accounting for the probability that all the passengers on those likely paths end up on the same plane vs some spread of 1-n planes for the meeting.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:16:57Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Robert: not the only thing that confuses me/ makes me uncomfortable about this, but yet. I believe that holding three meetings a year generates more CO2 than one, but find most of the statistical estimates dubious... and comparisons with people living in assorted places unhelpful
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:17:54Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "Robert, is your thinking that decreasing our flights won't decrease the number of airplanes traveling anyway?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:18:22Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "@robert: it's my assumption that the airline industry has been asked to produce these figures with these considerations for the express purpose of encouraging calculations/projections/offsets such as those Daniel is making.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:19:02Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "If that's all you want to say, just say that.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:19:11Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@npd: I was thinking more about the other side of that: if we had three people sitting on the same plane, it doesn't generate three times the emissions.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:19:29Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "Note that the scale at the bottom of this slide is logarithmic
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:19:39Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "@mallory - that's exactly my discomfort. I'm not yet convinced the metric is being used correctly.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:20:56Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "systemic analysis has shown that airplane travel has a disproportionately large emissions impact, which is why it will need to be considered for all meetings (not just ietf meetings)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:21:25Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "@robert my worry is that we have to trust airline produced statistics which might themselves be dubious, so not Daniel's fault.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:21:51Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "I mean, sure, less travel is good for reducing co2, but if we're going to try to use a model to find a point of optimization, we better be sure the model is actually good
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:22:13Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "yes, I see that concern too, and agree.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:22:39Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "since the airline industry is in charge of these stats, if anything they have an incentive to make the problem look less dire than it is, no? the risk is not on the other side here.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:22:51Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "@john, I think calculated emissions are per passenger, not for an entire flight. so 100 people on a flight, it's generally attributed 1 per cent to each passenger
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:23:06Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "+1 to Lars
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:23:39Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "Should we also consider the effect that IETF standards has on travel more generally (perhaps causing less travel)?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:23:45Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "(not saying that's my viewpoint BTW, just raising the issue)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:24:27Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@npd: but that is exactly one of the things that makes those statistics dubious, because if that plane has 200 seats and 100 passengers, those empty seats have nearly the same carbon impact as the full one.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:25:03Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "@john, absolutely, calculations of carbon emissions need to include how full flights are (that's also applied to trains, buses, cars, etc.)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:25:52Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "@john Airlines have a strong financial incentive to keep load factors uniform (and high) so perhaps load factors can be assumed to be constant
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:26:46Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Jim, a variation on that came up earlier in the week, perhaps in DISPATCH, about trying to reduce emissions from IETF protocols. More cynically, one has to wonder about carbon impact of ranting and emissions of hot air from people's mouths :-(
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:27:01Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "would people support a collective effort? or just want to wait for a collective effort before we do anything ourselves?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:27:26Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "that's not what martin said
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:27:31Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "I'm in favor of this type of work, but, if decisions are going to be made on the basis of statistics, those statistics should be real. And it is really important to look at whole systems
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:28:13Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "@jorge, now that is an impressive setup!
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:28:32Z"}, {"author": "Mirja K\u00fchlewind", "text": "on a high level, less travel is less co2. What we really need to make sure that we have good remote participation, so people have a choice if the want to travel or not.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:28:43Z"}, {"author": "Mirja K\u00fchlewind", "text": "Still note that remote meetings also have some co2 emission
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:29:01Z"}, {"author": "John C Klensin", "text": "@Mirja: exactly
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:29:34Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "+1 Mirja. I think IETF (and honestly Meetecho) is providing a positive example on how to run hybrid meetings
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:29:44Z"}, {"author": "Jay Daley", "text": "The discussion is covering a couple of elements of my presentation, It might be useful to pause, have my presentation and then resume the queue
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:29:47Z"}, {"author": "Richard Scheffenegger", "text": "@mirja. correct. also, co-locating of event venues in time/space is already happening to some extent - reducing the excess emissions somewhat
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:29:55Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "LU2AQO?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:30:07Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": ":thumbsup:
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:30:14Z"}, {"author": "Mirja K\u00fchlewind", "text": "+1 to take Jay's talk first
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:30:14Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "AE5LL
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:30:24Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "yes LU2AQO when I was in Argentina
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:30:31Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "now San Antonio, TX, no radio, wife will kick me out of the house if I do HAM oeprations
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:30:53Z"}, {"author": "Oliver Borchert", "text": "My mic should work now
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:30:57Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "heh
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:31:02Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "Please go next Oliver
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:31:15Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "I prefer one in-person meeting a year with a lot of participants than three sparsely attended meetings.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:31:32Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "1 in-person meeting/year means that the siting of that meeting is a more impactful decision.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:32:20Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "The carbon emissions issue is important but the first question we should ask is whether one or three meetings work best for us. Because if the answer is one is better, no need to ask about the emissions.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:32:26Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "once we get to the point at which remote infra CO2 is significant, and are making choices of e.g. which cloud infra to stick meetecho processing in based on the CO2 emissions of each provider, that would be a significant win over the pre-2019 landscape...
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:32:44Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "Robert and Jorge: I'm N3BL, but also no radio.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:33:18Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "+1 Brian (Hi!!)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:33:29Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "QSL
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:33:48Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "And I'm K1JH, currently VHF only but in the market to buy an HF radio
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:33:48Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "(hi suresh!!)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:33:54Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "go SDR Jim
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:34:01Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "Definitely
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:34:12Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "Phillip has a point but I'm not optimistic that we will achieve consensus on meeting frequency
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:34:47Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "would love to be proved wrong on that though
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:34:54Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "I'm not sure it will be easy to choose a location based on all participants to decrease emissions, because it's possible that choosing the location will also determine which participants travel to it
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:35:05Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "reduce the speed of your modem :grinning:
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:35:16Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "jk
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:35:24Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "nth order CO2: gas used to bake your own cookies
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:35:28Z"}, {"author": "Richard Scheffenegger", "text": "Well, asia locations seem to be not viable in the immediate future... keep that slot as fully remote...
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:35:48Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "agreed
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:36:38Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "another factor is, don't select exotic places where travel and lodging is more expensive
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:37:09Z"}, {"author": "Mirja K\u00fchlewind", "text": "I think people are quite keen at this point to meet in person again but over the longer term, we actually might see changes in behaviour by individual decisions
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:37:38Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Fully support an all-hands effort to defeat cryptocurrency for the sake of earth
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:38:01Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "Agreed, keeping it hybrid has many benefits
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:38:19Z"}, {"author": "Richard Scheffenegger", "text": "+1 ted
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:38:29Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "the question is how much hybrid?>
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:38:30Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "+many ted and mallory
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:38:32Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "if only it were in scope
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:38:52Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "\"is the IETF morally obligated to use routing-plane modifications to shut down PoW blockchains\" might require a recharter for shmoo to consider though
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:39:24Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "just so happens we are rechartering :)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:39:49Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "well let me put myself in queue then :D
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:40:00Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "@Mallory: write a cryptocurrency-die-die-die draft :)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:40:20Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "draft-ietf-shmoo-active-carbon-offsets-winkwink
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:40:42Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "now i'll have to sit on my hands not to.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:40:52Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "How much does a side meetings you score the win at count? Less or more?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:41:02Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": ":)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:41:13Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "\"what really makes a difference\" always seems to be someone else reducing emissions, rather than us. :shrug:
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:41:19Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "can we get to jay? before we're burned out on the topic
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:42:34Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "The room enjoyed that last part.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:42:43Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@pete, I thought the might
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:43:09Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "While I agree with Ted that we are probably negligible in the grand scheme of things
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:43:21Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "I believe in doing whatever we can do
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:43:48Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "being negligible in the grand scheme of things is not a justification for doing nothing
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:43:59Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "Yep Brian
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:44:07Z"}, {"author": "Phillip Hallam-Baker", "text": "@npd, someone else doing the reductions does not necessarily mean someone else paying the costs.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:44:07Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "reductio ad absurdum: the earth is negligible in the grand scheme of things. :)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:44:18Z"}, {"author": "Oliver Borchert", "text": "Thanks Daniel for your work.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:44:28Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "@Brian: Watching Wall-E lately?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:44:37Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Reed", "text": "+1 Thank you Daniel
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:44:44Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "no but good suggestion
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:45:01Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "+1 Thanks for doing this work Daniel
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:45:10Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@brian: If the number really were as big as Ted stated (0.1\u00b0C impact), that wouldn't be negligible. :)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:45:38Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "nudge jay closer to the mic?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:47:01Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "that's a common argument about decreasing aviation emissions: aviation emissions are a small fraction compared to the total (only 4%). but of course per person emissions they're enormous, they're only 4% because most people aren't yet rich enough to travel internationally regularly.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:47:18Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Either way, measuring the downside of fewer meetings (in some interesting comparable way) is going to be hard.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:47:18Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "Thanks Lars!
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:47:20Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "Better
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:47:27Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "Is there any publication with that information ?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:48:15Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "Why would one's flight class matter?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:48:19Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@Barry: Efficient use of space and resources on the plane.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:48:41Z"}, {"author": "Stephen McQuistin", "text": "lower passenger density in first/business
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:48:43Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "@Barry, first class seats take up more room on the plane, and so the emissions are shared by fewer people
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:48:45Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "and costs more
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:49:02Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "Yes, but half the people on the planes I'm on are in biz/first because of upgrades. So it shouldn't matter.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:49:16Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "then your emissions are more expensive
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:49:27Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "what matters is how much space you take up on the plane, not what you paid to do so
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:50:08Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "not what you paid, how much it costs
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:50:35Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "ah. yes. sorry for misunderstanding that part
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:51:07Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "The plane has those seats whether I'm in them or not. Unless we're saying that if we don't fly biz class, the airlines will remove those seats and replace them with more economy ones?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:51:09Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@Barry: Correct.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:51:48Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "@barry, right, if fewer people pay for first class seats, then airlines have reason to replace those with economy seats
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:51:53Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "yes, that's the assumption (less demand -> less supply)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:51:54Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "...indeed i have a whole pechakucha on that topic...
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:51:55Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "that could help to put more packets on the pipe
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:51:58Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "(United is actually going in the other direction: having *fewer* economy seats.)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:52:08Z"}, {"author": "BEHCET SARIKAYA", "text": "I think they should have EP electric planes
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:52:41Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "Elon Musk should work on Tesla jet engines.....
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:53:13Z"}, {"author": "Barry Leiba", "text": "...with solar charging.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:53:27Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@Barry: If you don't fly, someone else is likely to fill your seat if you're the only one in the world doesn't fly. You can't base the measurement strictly on how much you, personally, use.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:53:30Z"}, {"author": "Richard Scheffenegger", "text": "energy density is not allowing electric long distance planes (or hydrogen planes)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:53:32Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "When Starship is ready we can jump on it
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:53:39Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "co2 vs rare metal mining
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:53:52Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "...if we added an event to nuke bitcoin, we could be a net benefit...
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:54:16Z"}, {"author": "Richard Scheffenegger", "text": "the energy consumptio of P2P starship is about 5-8x higher than plane travel...
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:54:16Z"}, {"author": "BEHCET SARIKAYA", "text": "@mallory right
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:54:23Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "SpaceX has a contract from the military to evaluate using Starship to move assets from A to B
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:54:39Z"}, {"author": "Richard Scheffenegger", "text": "(but CH4 is easiert created from CO2 than higher-order hydrocarbons needed for Jet A1)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:54:51Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "we are doing some
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:55:30Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "R&D about it around here
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:55:38Z"}, {"author": "Richard Scheffenegger", "text": "@jorge: interesting. allowed to share more details?
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:56:11Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "sure I will get in touch and send you some
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:57:32Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "sent you a Lin connection request
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:57:41Z"}, {"author": "BEHCET SARIKAYA", "text": "It is good to have this discussion on carbon emissions
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:57:45Z"}, {"author": "BEHCET SARIKAYA", "text": "In America no one cares
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:58:17Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "here is one reference
https://www.expressnews.com/business/local/article/San-Antonio-company-working-with-military-SpaceX-15635566.php
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:58:21Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "+1 to Martin regarding not needing prior consensus. Decisions the LLC makes with any of our funds (which hotels to use, what to spend on tooling, etc.) need to be reviewable, but the LLC is designed to be able to make these decisions without direct community input. This is just another thing that the LLC can do so long as the actions are reviewable, IMO.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:58:36Z"}, {"author": "Brian Trammell", "text": "+1 fwiw
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:58:59Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "I'm somehow associated with the XArc people but on another plane (non-profit, education)
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:59:02Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "I really appreciate learning more about this work, Jay, and having the opportunity to encourage it.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:59:25Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Migault", "text": "+1 to PEter.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:59:48Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "I'll repeat at the mic.
", "time": "2022-03-24T14:59:59Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "I wonder how many onsite attendees combine IETF travel with family vacations, and whether that reduces impact somewhat.
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:00:23Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "my wife will kill me if I do that
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:00:46Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "+1 lars
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:01:30Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "really? She doesn't like IETF venues or doesn't like IETF people?
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:01:42Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "@jim, it does, and I've tried to combine travel for that purpose in the past. but also most of us rich people will need to reduce our leisure international travel as well (whether or not we have accepted that yet)
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:01:47Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "@jim not a net geek
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:02:05Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "@npd Yes we do.
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:02:12Z"}, {"author": "Suresh Krishnan", "text": "+1 Pete. This is what I meant by consultation
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:02:20Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "It would certainly produce helpful guidance for participants as per my previous suggestion.
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:03:24Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": "@jorge My wife isn't a net geek either, but usually finds interesting things to do at IETF venues. We also travel in the area adjacent to the meetings.
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:03:29Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "This is Martin, who didn't say that he was Martin. :-)
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:03:39Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "@jim she will say something like \"you spent all time in the computer and you plan to spend our vacations on a room full of people that spend all their time on computers\"
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:03:43Z"}, {"author": "Jim Fenton", "text": ":)
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:04:01Z"}, {"author": "Jorge Amodio", "text": "@jim but it happen in the past when I had to meeting I grabbed the family for some quality time after the meetings
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:04:56Z"}, {"author": "Richard Scheffenegger", "text": "combine in space, not necessarily in time ;)
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:04:58Z"}, {"author": "Sean Turner", "text": "thanks for that check MartinD :)
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:05:33Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "is there an interest in some carbon emissions RG / WG for IETF more generally?
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:09:22Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "certainly
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:09:47Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Cheers!
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:09:51Z"}, {"author": "npd", "text": "or maybe we should look for mailing lists or coordination across other standards bodies too
", "time": "2022-03-24T15:09:57Z"}]