PANRG Agenda IETF 113  
When: 13:00-14:00 CET Thu March 24th, 2022

Where: Meetecho

Chairs: Jen Linkova and Brian Trammell

Minutes Taker: Gorry Fairhurst, Carsten Bormann

Jabber Scribe: TBA

Jabber: panrg@jabber.ietf.org

## 13:00 Welcome, Note Well, Agenda Chairs   {#1300-welcome-note-well-agenda-chairs}

RFC9217 (current open questions) published  
draft-irtf-panrg-path-properties active RG document

**Brian:** SCION side meeting Tue; will need to find out how to engage
with the IRTF/IETF.

**Spencer:** I think we should announce this meeting really soon, so we
have opportunity to better prepare.

## 13:05 A Vocabulary of Path Properties (draft-irtf-panrg-path-properties) R. Enghardt, *C. Krähenbühl*   {#1305-a-vocabulary-of-path-properties-draft-irtf-panrg-path-properties-r-enghardt-c-krähenbühl}

Cyril presents updates (host -> endpoint, ...)

**Brian Trammell:** I quite like the endpoint definition. This seems
sufficient.

Discuss last-call on the list...  
Show-of-hands:

* is path-properties ready for last call?  
  12:2 (61 people in room)  
  Spencer: +1 for Last Call (didn't find tab)

So what is missing?  
**Tianji Jiang:** used "domain", is that term causing
conflict/ambiguity?  
**Cyrill:** generic identifier, needs to be defined in terms of specific
routing protocol

**Mohamed Boucadair\_web\_183 (in chat):** I'm not sure to get the
comment. This is a generic abstract of a specific network permiter an
area can be an example of a domain for IGPs 1

* who's read path-properties?  
  12:20  
  Chairs encourage people to read the ID and comment, as they prepare
  for an RG last call.

## 13:20 15m Service Awareness rather than Path Awareness M. Welzl   {#1320-15m-service-awareness-rather-than-path-awareness-m-welzl}

How to use proxies  
PEPs  
are not strictly evil, good intentions, terrible outcomes

so QUIC does not work as well over satellite

retrofit proxies into QUIC?

ossification was due to PEPs being transparent; need to make assumptions
about headers that weren't justified

Suggestion:

separation of concerns: "sidecar"  
opt-in  
some compromise of anonymity is part of the contract

minimize changes to main protocol  
ossifying the sidecar would lead to losing performance advantage worst
case  
PEP as use case for sidecar

ACK hashes over transport  
could be piggybacked using UDP options  
using QUIC for exposition, could be TCP or SCTP

Example 1: link with fluctuating capacity (mmwave)

server picks service choice  
SC gives QUIC an SC notification

CC requires control loop, needs to be on client side as well

Example 2: WiFi AP acks on behalf of host  
server chooses to accept SC acks as client acks (but leave data in send
buffer)  
PEPs sends hashes as ACKs  
client probably should know that it doesn't need to ACK as much.

There is future research: how to limit SC ACK overhead;  
rendezvous with SC proxy via sending hashes to sender  
sender-side SC needs to "trust" proxy, which would need to guess hashes 

Path change: some form of negotiation (hand-over)  
**Stuart Card (in chat):** +1 to this sidecar idea  
**Carsten Bormann (in chat):** This is *Interesting* stuff. (And I'm
already thinking how to put LOOPs in here :-)  
**Chris Box (BT):** I like the idea.  
**Jake Holland:** Ideas how to discover?

**Marcus Ihlar:** Ericsson is doing similar stuff; Light-weight PEP.

**Mohamed Boucadair\_web\_183 (in chat):** Is this another way to do
LOOPS?  
**Stuart Card\_web\_674:** +1 to this sidecar idea   
 **cabo:** This is *Interesting* stuff.   
**Stuart Card\_web\_674:** I am a long time PEP user/developer.   
 **cabo:** (And I'm already thinking how to put LOOPs in here :-)   
**Mohamed Boucadair\_web\_183:** it is already some sort if LOOPS,
Cartsne ;-)   
**Stuart Card\_web\_674:** ESP is essential but precludes what I have
always done.   
**Brian Trammell\_web\_735:** it's like LOOPS + PLUS  
**Mohamed Boucadair\_web\_183:** It isn't PLUS as the initial signal not
touched. No? this is more OOB

## 13:35 Wide Area Network Autoscaling for Cloud Applications B. Serracanta   {#1335-wide-area-network-autoscaling-for-cloud-applications-b-serracanta}

## 13:45 PoLKA source routing intro R. Guimarães   {#1345-polka-source-routing-intro-r-guimarães}

## 13:50 Gateway Based Trust Relationship Between the Endpoint and the Intermediate Node (draft-du-panrg-gateway-based-trust-relationship) Zongpeng Du   {#1350-gateway-based-trust-relationship-between-the-endpoint-and-the-intermediate-node-draft-du-panrg-gateway-based-trust-relationship-zongpeng-du}

No questions.

Chairs expect an Interim meeting, and will announce to the list. There
is likely to be a request for a meeting in Philadelphia.