[{"author": "Randy Bush", "text": "
they are doing it to make folk very glad we did not go to philly
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:00:08Z"}, {"author": "Marwan Fayed", "text": "Masks are mandatory!
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:01:33Z"}, {"author": "Randy Bush", "text": "remotely, we see a title slide
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:02:37Z"}, {"author": "Juliusz Chroboczek", "text": "Am I the only one who hears noise behind the speaker's voice?
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:04:27Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "I'm getting distortion too
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:04:38Z"}, {"author": "Michael T\u00fcxen", "text": "Same for me
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:05:23Z"}, {"author": "Juliusz Chroboczek", "text": "Yes!
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:05:32Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "yes
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:05:32Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hoyland", "text": "Much better
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:05:32Z"}, {"author": "Yi Huang", "text": "better
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:05:33Z"}, {"author": "Michael T\u00fcxen", "text": "Better
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:05:35Z"}, {"author": "Oliver Borchert", "text": "yes bettwe
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:05:42Z"}, {"author": "Juliusz Chroboczek", "text": "TJ?
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:07:27Z"}, {"author": "Colin Perkins", "text": "Tijay Chung from Virginia Tech, the co-chair of the workshop
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:07:54Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hoyland", "text": "Taejoong \"Tijay\" Chung
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:08:24Z"}, {"author": "Juliusz Chroboczek", "text": "TY
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:08:31Z"}, {"author": "Randy Bush", "text": "@lucas: yes
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:10:09Z"}, {"author": "Lars Eggert", "text": "we see a black screen in the room
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:12:09Z"}, {"author": "Petr \u0160pa\u010dek", "text": "We can see black screen with a cursor.
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:12:15Z"}, {"author": "Alessandro Amirante", "text": "now they're available
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:16:54Z"}, {"author": "Juliusz Chroboczek", "text": "(I was hoping it was a reference to 8\u00bd.)
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:19:20Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hoyland", "text": "I thought the IETF was layer 8 :P
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:19:27Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hoyland", "text": "But no 5
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:20:27Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "In fact there's no [latform 5 in the map he's showing!
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:21:06Z"}, {"author": "Juliusz Chroboczek", "text": "They've got 8 tracks numbered from 0 to 8. Unlike TCP/IP, which has 5 layers numbered 1 to 7 ;-)
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:21:52Z"}, {"author": "Chris Box", "text": "Currently Cloudflare Radar is telling me 0% HTTP, 100% HTTPS. More precision needed!
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:31:29Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hoyland", "text": "If you hover-over the tooltip text gives you 6 decimal places.
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:34:54Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hoyland", "text": "I'm seeing HTTP: 0.485541% vs HTTPS: 99.514459%
", "time": "2022-07-26T14:35:43Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "That was me, (george) as Dobby
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:00:00Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "delay and jitter are fundamental properties of the network and link layer(s) dependent on the properties of the physical layer capabilities under noise and contention
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:00:57Z"}, {"author": "Gorry Fairhurst", "text": "The audio of the seaker seems very low...
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:01:00Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Dodeller", "text": "same here
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:01:12Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "but that aside, a very entertaining keynote, most enjoyable. the metrics you have in CF for 4and a bit and above , are fascinating
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:01:33Z"}, {"author": "Alessandro Amirante", "text": "I boosted a bit the audio level
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:02:31Z"}, {"author": "Alessandro Amirante", "text": "should be better now
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:02:37Z"}, {"author": "Randy Bush", "text": "it is
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:02:46Z"}, {"author": "Al Morton", "text": "it is thanks
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:02:49Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Dodeller", "text": "thank you!
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:02:59Z"}, {"author": "Marwan Fayed", "text": "Hi Folks. I'm told the wifi in the room is flaky. If slides drop again, I'll take slide control and advance on 'next slide pls' command.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:06:15Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "q: what gives you confidence that the results for 2 flows competing extend to N flows competing?
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:08:29Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "David Oran said:
\n\n\nq: what gives you confidence that the results for 2 flows competing extend to N flows competing?
\n
A good Q, because the experiental sense is that one BBR pushes out many Cubic, where many Cubic seem to share equitably and two BBR can share equitably but I am unsure 3 can, or 3 BBR and 1 Cubic can share equitably
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:12:16Z"}, {"author": "Lucas Pardue", "text": "@george Michaelson I agree the lower layers play a huge role. I suspected the IAB workshop might focus on those aspects and ignore the potential for upper layers to ruin end-user experience in spite of all the good work being done below. The link to our IAB position paper is https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2021/09/Lower-layer-performance-is-not-indicative-of-upper-layer-success-20210906-00-1.pdf in case that helps
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:13:12Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "Lucas Pardue said:
\n\n\n@george Michaelson I agree the lower layers play a huge role. I suspected the IAB workshop might focus on those aspects and ignore the potential for upper layers to ruin end-user experience in spite of all the good work being done below. The link to our IAB position paper is https://www.iab.org/wp-content/IAB-uploads/2021/09/Lower-layer-performance-is-not-indicative-of-upper-layer-success-20210906-00-1.pdf in case that helps
\n
I also thought that from a 2/3 layer view, QUIC has more qualities of session than transport sometimes. So, the 4/7 thing might really be 4.5/7 as the intrusion of session stability under variant transports, and then I think JSON is presentation layer.. so I kind of think you're in 4.5/6/7 land.. its beginning to get crowded up there.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:15:11Z"}, {"author": "Spencer Dawkins", "text": "I would also love for other fairness metrics to gain traction, especially if they work. :grinning:
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:18:21Z"}, {"author": "Lucas Pardue", "text": "interesting, in my experience you can't handle JSON until the application protocol has terminated. So my reality is more that lots happens above layer 7 and therefore beyond the normal concerns of the IP comms stack
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:19:34Z"}, {"author": "Juliusz Chroboczek", "text": "George Michaelson: it depends on your application, I guess. If you're doing multiple short HTTP requests, then your session layer lives above HTTP. If your whole session consists of a single QUIC connection, then parts of QUIC do indeed serve as a session layer.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:25:58Z"}, {"author": "Spencer Dawkins", "text": "George Michaelson said:
\n\n\nI also thought that from a 2/3 layer view, QUIC has more qualities of session than transport sometimes.
\n
I agree, especially with the multipath QUIC extension, but even with RFC 9000 connection migration, we're beyond transport, as I understand transport.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:26:27Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "As a ML skeptic I am actually really delighted when people get traction on ML applications like this. The one presented yesterday in IRTF on ML in the PISA model for switching doing per-packet forwarding logic was really interesting. As was this one. Thanks for presenting. I suspect a LOT of work went into the problem classification and ML training on the data from 2 years of outages. You had access to an awesome list of information.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:33:16Z"}, {"author": "Christine Pukropski", "text": "George Michaelson said:
\n\n\nAs a ML skeptic I am actually really delighted when people get traction on ML applications like this. The one presented yesterday in IRTF on ML in the PISA model for switching doing per-packet forwarding logic was really interesting. As was this one. Thanks for presenting. I suspect a LOT of work went into the problem classification and ML training on the data from 2 years of outages. You had access to an awesome list of information.
\n
same! cool to see. the one yesterday too was interesting.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:34:50Z"}, {"author": "Gorry Fairhurst", "text": "I wonder what type of satellite link was used, that saw propagation loss error, rather than ACM modulation/coding changes at the physical layer?
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:37:34Z"}, {"author": "Juliusz Chroboczek", "text": "A simulated one, slide 15
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:38:43Z"}, {"author": "Jan Evang", "text": "Thanks for your comments. I think some projects have tried to use ML for tasks where it is not suitable (it is not always predictable) in this project it has proved to be a very valuable tool. Any mis-classification would have little impact.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:38:57Z"}, {"author": "Gorry Fairhurst", "text": "Yeah, I gues this is a GEO satellite service - but which sort of satellite system has 1% loss from propagation?
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:40:22Z"}, {"author": "Michael T\u00fcxen", "text": "Which loss rates are typical for GEO sattellites (I don't know much about satellite communication)?
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:41:25Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I am tempted to ask if they could repeat for LEO on a shorter RTT, similar asymmetry. Only because SpaceX suggests there's going to be a LOT of uptake in LEO, and its a fertile space for aggressive content delivery competition for the bandwidth where I think GEO sat has maxed out its likely use for interactive. Great for Unidirectional.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:42:31Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "Nice paper. well presented, clear, easy to understand slides, good logical ordering of the story. Thanks for making it easier for me to understand and follow.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:43:20Z"}, {"author": "Gorry Fairhurst", "text": "LEO would be interesting - but there's no common understanding of the path charactacteristics as far as I know - the LEO systems are evolving. I think GEO will continue ... modern big satellites have can dramatically change the cost/capacity tradeoffs ...
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:45:26Z"}, {"author": "Juliusz Chroboczek", "text": "Would anyone happen to know whether the satellite operators are deploying AQMs?
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:45:43Z"}, {"author": "Gorry Fairhurst", "text": "There has been research projects to do that. There are complications in buffering for multiple access systems and AQMs which make this an interesting problem space!
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:47:05Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "Gorry Fairhurst said:
\n\n\nLEO would be interesting - but there's no common understanding of the path charactacteristics as far as I know - the LEO systems are evolving. I think GEO will continue ... modern big satellites have can dramatically change the cost/capacity tradeoffs ...
\n
I think there's a lot in this: GEO is well understood, so is a better basis for reproducible research right now. Also stable: they're big investments up there which arent changing much. LEO is moving rapidly into new spaces like inter-sat comms, and are changing all the time because of rapid deployment of smarter devices. Right now I'm told they're just bent pipes. But not forever.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:50:28Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "Big thank you to the ANRW PC for selecting nice talks. I was only going to graze into this one but I wound up staying all the time, because they were interesting. So you did a good PC filter on content, you picked nice ones. Well done.
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:55:12Z"}, {"author": "Gorry Fairhurst", "text": "On QUIC ACKS, you might like to look at draft-fairhurst-quic-ack-scaling, and see whether this sort of change would be similar to what you saw in picoquic. This ref also provides some background: DOI: 10.1109/ASMS/SPSC48805.2020.9268894; get in touch if you have questions.:grinning:
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:55:17Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "(rather unfortunate diagram having 312 \"longer\" than 320 ms in the lines. The figures told a better story than the visuals on the FEC cost)
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:57:12Z"}, {"author": "Lucas Pardue", "text": "thanks everybody, nice session
", "time": "2022-07-26T15:58:25Z"}]