can hear you, ekr
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:34:40Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Folks online can hear?
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:34:41Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "ekr needs to stay closer to the mic
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:35:38Z"}, {"author": "Julian Reschke", "text": "Slower. Louder.
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:37:03Z"}, {"author": "Jabber", "text": "Yoshiro Yoneya: +1 Julian
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:38:17Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "+1 github issue tracker
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:44:02Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "If this group doesn't have the authority to evolve the format, what's the point?
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:49:21Z"}, {"author": "John Klensin", "text": "I hesitate to speak for Brian, but part of the format evolution question is about where that becomes a policy decision and where it is just something that is a result of how tooling evolveds
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:50:03Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "We are in such a mess because the tools drove the format in the past
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:50:57Z"}, {"author": "John Klensin", "text": "@Robert: while I agree about the UTF-8 in principle, unless you make a script restriction, there are a world of traps out there... so that is a \"be careful what you wish for\" problem. Happy to discuss/explain furhter offline.
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:52:43Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@Mark Nottingham Yes, I think that is why the boundary of policy vs mechanism is fuzzy.
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:52:52Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "@John Klensin Sure- but I think we hand _that_ to the stream managers or the RPC to gate, not the grammar, or the tools.
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:56:57Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "We need to be able to apply judgment rather than deal with a blanket prohibition.
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:57:31Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "Wait, the IESG sets policy for I-Ds overall?
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:57:55Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "The IESG owns the I-D repository.
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:58:11Z"}, {"author": "Joel Halpern", "text": "It seems to me that the RSAB could within the rules well say \"that is micro-managing and as such bad for the long term health of the series\". As was noted, one would hope that any such concerns would be brought up in the RSWG discussions.
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:58:15Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "Even though it's used by other streams. Hmm.
", "time": "2022-07-25T17:58:28Z"}, {"author": "John Klensin", "text": "Another issue vis-a-vis trolls is who gets to decide who is a troll, on what basis, and whether that information/categorization is public.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:00:03Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "@joel, sure. But it would have to a quite serious amount of micromanagement.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:00:15Z"}, {"author": "Joel Halpern", "text": "@eliot sure, I expect it to be rare. Your description implied it might be agaisnt the rules for the RSAB to consider the issue. So I was pointing out that it is within the rules.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:01:55Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "alexey - are you in the chat?
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:02:12Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Mark, we can hear you.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:08:21Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "marc we can hear you, but can you hear ekr?
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:08:26Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "7991bis
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:09:07Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "_go_
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:09:11Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "/me is now sad.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:13:00Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "The IAB should enter support for the bis docs, but they should go through the editorial stream.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:14:44Z"}, {"author": "Julian Reschke", "text": "I believe there are open issues in 7991bis that would need to bre resolved first
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:15:26Z"}, {"author": "Julian Reschke", "text": "There are also issues that are inherent in 7991 (not bis) that need to be fixed, mainly wrt doc metadata
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:16:36Z"}, {"author": "John Klensin", "text": "My version of what she is suggesting is that \"quick\" would be good and, unless the editorial stream (and our approval process) is ready to go, getting a snapshot out there would be a good idea. If it is a mess, let's document the mess, and then start reviewing what needs to be done (or un-done)
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:17:06Z"}, {"author": "Michael StJohns", "text": "This document should be published by the IAB as the \"here's what we're handing over to the RSWG\", not as a 'this is what you need to implement\"
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:18:07Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "@John Levine let's have the discussion. I suspect we'll agree to fix the most egregious issues, and let a number lie as is.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:18:09Z"}, {"author": "Michael StJohns", "text": "in every role where I've either taken on responsibility or passed it on, there was some sort of inventory and signoff done...
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:18:48Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "@Michael StJohns that would be extremely confusing for people who need to use the document.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:18:55Z"}, {"author": "Michael StJohns", "text": "that's what this should be
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:18:57Z"}, {"author": "Michael StJohns", "text": "mark - using the old document that doesn't describe the current tooling is MORE confusing...
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:19:20Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "It would be very helpful if we could figure out the scope of change (or lack thereof) in the next revision of the format document. Part of that is figuring out a roadmap for future updates.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:21:29Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "Also good would be to document what the format is for -- with some discussion about whether we need distinct variants of the format for different purposes.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:22:12Z"}, {"author": "Julian Reschke", "text": "and we should do prioritize those things that will affect existing RFCs in that they will need to converted
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:22:32Z"}, {"author": "Michael StJohns", "text": "@julian - converted to what?
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:22:58Z"}, {"author": "Michael StJohns", "text": "a current format or a to be defined format at some point in the later future?
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:23:31Z"}, {"author": "Julian Reschke", "text": "to a slightly different type of XML
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:23:38Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "@Michael StJohns he means republishing them (replacing them completely) but using a different XMLRFC grammar
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:23:42Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "Mark, what do you think of Paul's proposal?
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:23:54Z"}, {"author": "Julian Reschke", "text": "some changes I have in mind would actually undo changes in V3 and go back to V2
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:24:01Z"}, {"author": "Michael StJohns", "text": "@robert - so republishing them in a theoretical change to the XML grammar at some point after said grammar is published and approved?
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:24:39Z"}, {"author": "Julian Reschke", "text": "\"so republishing them in a theoretical change to the XML grammar at some point after said grammar is published and approved?\" - yes
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:25:00Z"}, {"author": "Michael StJohns", "text": "cart/horse issue?
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:25:01Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "that's my understanding of the thinking. (I'm personally really twitchy about republishing - I think we should document what we did and move on)
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:25:12Z"}, {"author": "Julian Reschke", "text": "+1 on what Mark's saying
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:27:26Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "I think it would be better to categorize this as 'the grammar used to publish the last several hundred RFCs'
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:27:42Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "@Robert Sparks that might work -- decouple the decision about whether we republish, and revisit it later
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:28:29Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "To sharpen the point I was just making: at this point an author would be within their rights to produce text in the RFC 7991 grammar and insist that the RPC publish it
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:29:21Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "(chairs, time check)
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:29:23Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "@Eric Rescorla indeed.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:29:37Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "To refine - publishing this with light review as \"the grammar used to publish the last several hundred RFCs\" might work, as long as we have a realistic, detailed, agreed-to plan for what happens next.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:30:57Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "This gets tied up in whether we republish. If we republish, we don't _want_ more implementations of the interim unhappy grammar. If we don't then we need other implementations to be able to parse what we've published.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:31:50Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "BUT, publishing it as \"this is the canonical RFC format\" without that plan and without that context is not deserved.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:31:53Z"}, {"author": "Julian Reschke", "text": "What does making it an RFC buy us, except for adding confusion?
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:32:45Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "\"Documentation of what is currently published\"
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:32:52Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "and obsolete it if we republish.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:32:57Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "Will all current XML RFCs actually conform to it, as it currently sits?
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:33:21Z"}, {"author": "Eliot Lear", "text": "Thank you, Chairs!
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:33:22Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "that was John's goal, yes.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:33:35Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "all v3 era XML rfcs
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:33:53Z"}, {"author": "Mark Nottingham", "text": "yup. I think we might be able to thread the needle here, will try to write an e-mail.
", "time": "2022-07-25T18:34:13Z"}]