maybe it's a caching issue?
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:33:43Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "I can backup-scribe, and I've started in the doc: https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-115-hrpc?edit
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:36:25Z"}, {"author": "Corinne Cath", "text": "where are we taking notes
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:36:36Z"}, {"author": "Corinne Cath", "text": "i can help
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:36:40Z"}, {"author": "Corinne Cath", "text": "do we have a pad?
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:36:43Z"}, {"author": "Lorenzo Miniero", "text": "Corinne: there's a note taking tool (5th icon on top) that you can open in a different tab too
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:37:25Z"}, {"author": "Corinne Cath", "text": "ty lorenzo
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:39:26Z"}, {"author": "avri doria", "text": "apologies for not being in room. eye problems. nothing serious but needing darkness this moring.
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:40:21Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "glad you're here and online, avri
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:45:17Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "(I've been taking notes here, because I hadn't seen the in-room scribe there yet: https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-115-hrpc?edit
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:46:13Z"}, {"author": "avri doria", "text": "thank you Tara.
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:51:19Z"}, {"author": "Carolina Caeiro", "text": "Thank you, Tara
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:51:25Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "Thanks Tara
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:51:32Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "The book with Alaa's collected writings can be bought here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/711886/you-have-not-yet-been-defeated-by-alaa-abd-el-fattah/
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:51:59Z"}, {"author": "Abdussalam Baryun", "text": "it was not a question... it was a respond
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:52:05Z"}, {"author": "Juliana Guerra", "text": "Thanks Tara, and thanks hrpc chair for opening the space for this
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:52:36Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "you can remove the mask when speaking
", "time": "2022-11-11T09:52:43Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "what does \"99% precision\" mean in slide 10?
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:02:52Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "@dkg, I think that was referring to what percentage of the challenged users did not subsequently pass the challenge
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:03:24Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "ok, so if i'm running a browser with javascript-disabled, i'd be counted as a \"precise\" rejection
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:04:23Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Almost heard a Stevie Wonder song in there. A+
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:16:38Z"}, {"author": "David Oliver", "text": "excellent presentation, Dimitri
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:24:19Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Sorry had to cut the queue for time!
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:24:32Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "please, join the queue over the Meetecho if you can (for all presentations) ;)
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:24:56Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "Does caching provide integrity/authentication? Can attackers introduce fake content?
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:26:03Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Thanks @dkg for asking @nick's question on mic in the same vein
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:31:06Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "benevolent injectors only?
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:32:25Z"}, {"author": "avri doria", "text": "do not see slides in session folder. is there a url for the slide set?
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:32:30Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "that's maybe two separate questions, you can pretend you have the content to try to surveil who is visiting that content; but also you can pretend to be the content provider and inject fake and misleading content
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:32:38Z"}, {"author": "Lorenzo Miniero", "text": "Avri: on the materials tab there's a refresh icon that will pull the updated list
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:33:04Z"}, {"author": "avri doria", "text": "thanks
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:33:14Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "it is difficult to make that point: this is awesome, and we are immediately going to consider every potential attack
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:33:45Z"}, {"author": "Gurshabad Grover", "text": "", "time": "2022-11-11T10:34:59Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "nick: exactly
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:35:13Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Grateful for this conversation. Hopefully it can continue in the IETF context since these ideas have been here before.
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:36:05Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "signed exchanges and re-distributed but still authentic/integrity-assured content is definitely an active topic at IETF and W3C
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:37:11Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "the challenge here seems to be the balance between metadata privacy (who is viewing what) and origin availability
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:37:40Z"}, {"author": "Shivan Sahib", "text": "Signed Exchanges aka AMP 2.0
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:38:29Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "we aren't getting much network from you Corinne, can you turn off video?
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:38:31Z"}, {"author": "Lorenzo Miniero", "text": "We cannot hear you Corinne, can you hear the room?
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:39:03Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "there is also a tricky UI wrinkle: representing something to the user as though it is \"https\" (the lock icon) has a particular expected semantic, and it's different semantics from what censorship.no is doing.
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:39:05Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "@shivan, yeah, it would potentially be a beneficial use of some of those technologies developed for AMP
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:39:11Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "and we could then also consider whether we can assuredly show an HTTPS icon and origin URL
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:39:37Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "there you go!
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:39:46Z"}, {"author": "Shivan Sahib", "text": "I think the arguments against signed exchanges muddying up the web security model haven't changed since the proposal was first introduced. Also doesn't look like standardization is being pursued any more
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:44:50Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "right, those signed exchanges mechanisms always claimed censorship resistance as one positive aspect for them, though never with as direct a tie to actual censorship resistance as dmitri's presentation.
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:47:00Z"}, {"author": "Shivan Sahib", "text": "exactly
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:47:12Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Precisely. This is why I'm glad they've come with that specific use case and then I think that we can work out from there with a different prioritised set of requirements.
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:47:35Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "to be clear, I wasn't necessarily supporting any particular past proposal, it just seemed like a more concrete application of that hypothetical potential, so it seems like an opportunity
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:48:20Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "i was thinking about the same proposal, nick, and i agree it's a natural match. too bad jeffrey yaskin isn't in the room.
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:49:13Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Hopefully there's a future room.
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:49:29Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "Cannot wait to restart work on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-irtf-hrpc-political-07 ;)
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:53:54Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "this is an amazing and wonderful interview quote
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:54:52Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "masterful interviewing
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:55:19Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "+1
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:55:49Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "+1
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:56:11Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "In my view, Corinne's talk makes a strong case for greater multistakeholder engagement in the IETF given the societal impact of \"technical\" decisions. The community (the IETF community as a whole, not just the HRPC) doesn't necessarily have the expertise or standing to understand and make informed decisions about the public policy impacts of a given technical proposal, or to judge the tradeoffs that often arise
", "time": "2022-11-11T10:59:56Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "great talk as always Corinne!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:00:42Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": ":clap:
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:01:01Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": ":clap:
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:01:07Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "I'll let you in, NtO
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:01:27Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "i'm counting the number of permutations of \"ANRP\" used in this discussion and i think we're up to 3 :relaxed:
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:01:58Z"}, {"author": "Shivan Sahib", "text": "HPRC
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:02:11Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "interesting though. We can have an standing website with all the slides/videos
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:03:28Z"}, {"author": "Vittorio Bertola", "text": "Well, at least collectively admitting that the IETF takes political positions would be a step forward. It would enable a proper discussion on how to do that correctly.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:03:32Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "hrpc.io is now static but we could revive it?
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:03:50Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "+1 Mallory, we should revive it and put the talks prob
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:04:07Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "we also have github and datatracker that are dynamic. just a bit of a content management problem tbqh.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:04:09Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "+1 yes!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:04:14Z"}, {"author": "Shivan Sahib", "text": "I created a YouTube playlist for PEARG a while back but haven't kept it up to date
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:04:24Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "+1 Vittorio
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:04:29Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "yeah, I think the github and datatracker are not sooo user-friendly to find the talks ;)
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:04:47Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "no question
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:04:55Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "we ought to be able to write a script to crawl the older agendas to extract the video recordings
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:05:22Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "I would really like to have a list of speakers, their talk titles, and links to their talks
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:06:13Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "I can work on something like that to revive hrpc.io
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:06:35Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "sofia i will put you in touch with ulrike who manages that website
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:07:09Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "also, very nice thought Adrian
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:07:14Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "yes! thank you, Mallory!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:07:20Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "+1 for reviewing charters, at charter-time can be an important time to raise human rights issues
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:07:37Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "will someone answer Adrian with pointers to past work on directorate / review team / experience?
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:08:02Z"}, {"author": "Monika Ermert", "text": "Human rights reviews have been done - i just vividly remember Gurshabad's reviews of Regext drafts - and the discussions about them in the Regext WG ;-)
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:08:08Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "@nick i will do
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:08:22Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "@monika please share your experience of that if you feel comfortable
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:08:45Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "it's useful
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:08:47Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "Some human rights reviews can be found here: https://gitlab.com/hr-rt/documents
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:08:56Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "Thanks Corinne!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:09:03Z"}, {"author": "Monika Ermert", "text": "see the link from Niels, i guess, and Gurshabad might better positened to tell about the controversy and tense situations
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:09:59Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "thank you, Corinne!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:10:50Z"}, {"author": "Carolina Caeiro", "text": "also perhaps participants in the group we can point out to work that we think might have important Human rights implications
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:11:05Z"}, {"author": "Carolina Caeiro", "text": "and bring attention to the rest of the group of those developments
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:11:18Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "for those interested in followup about content authenticity in Dmitri's presentation, i opened https://github.com/censorship-no/ceno-browser/issues/13
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:12:34Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "With regards reviewing charters, RFCs etc, does the IETF have standing for this or should it be outsourced to other bodies recognised in this area? [NB Not a reflection of people in the HRPC!]
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:12:39Z"}, {"author": "Carolina Caeiro", "text": "Andrew, I think the HRPC group has expertise and knowledege of IETF processes to play that role
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:13:27Z"}, {"author": "Carolina Caeiro", "text": "but it is an interesting question
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:13:34Z"}, {"author": "Carolina Caeiro", "text": "perhaps external experts can be invited as needed
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:13:45Z"}, {"author": "Niels ten Oever", "text": "Thanks Nick, will work on it!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:14:05Z"}, {"author": "Carolina Caeiro", "text": "I have to disconnect early, but will watch the last presentation this PM
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:14:22Z"}, {"author": "Carolina Caeiro", "text": "Many thanks all, this has been brilliant
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:14:29Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Thanks for joining, Caroline
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:14:52Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "Carolina!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:14:55Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@Carolina I was trying and failing to question whether an Internet Standards SDO has the standing to undertake such assessments - in the same way a human rights body wouldn't having standing to write and approve an Internet standard.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:15:33Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "Andrew, we have explicit liasons with other SDOs for things that we think are outside of our bailiwick, but the point of those liasons is to ensure that our standardization efforts align well with the work from those other SDOs
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:16:55Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "not to say that our work doesn't touch on their work
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:17:11Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "sofia, can you add a link? I hadn't seen this yet!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:17:12Z"}, {"author": "Shivan Sahib", "text": "https://github.com/claucece/draft-celi-ipvc/blob/main/draft-ietf-celi-ipvc.md
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:17:25Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "yes that one! thank you, Shivan!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:18:50Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "Andrew, are you arguing that we need a liason to human-rights-focused groups?
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:19:06Z"}, {"author": "Olle Johansson", "text": "Sofia - this is an area that involves emergency services as well. How to protect the fact that someone called 112 from a partner that has a level of technology control.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:20:03Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "+1 Olle. I should add also as 'cases'
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:20:43Z"}, {"author": "Vittorio Bertola", "text": "@Daniel Gillmor To me, the issue is that when you take political positions you start to be questioned about which stakeholders they represent, and - per the multistakeholder Internet governance principle - how and when those positions are going to be mediated with those of other stakeholders to get to consensus
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:21:11Z"}, {"author": "Olle Johansson", "text": "Sofia - it's unfortunately a cat and mouse game at this point.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:21:26Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "Vittorio, as Corinne pointed out, the \"when\" you are talking about is basically the entire history of the IETF
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:21:54Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "@vittorio, @dkg, I agree that it's always been happening, but that does really make the legitimacy question and breadth of stakeholder engagement more urgent
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:22:38Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@DKG More Vittorio's point - he can clearly read my mind and express things more clearly than me! :-)
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:22:51Z"}, {"author": "Mohammad Al Abbadi", "text": "I think it's important to understand that Human Rights is a universal framework of norms, not a silo or an limited domain. There's no \"IETF\" for human rights.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:24:07Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "States have obligations and companies have responsibilities under the HR framework, no matter the forum.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:24:41Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@Nick Agreed, once you recognise that technical decisions have wider impacts, the multistakeholder model becomes very relevant (as covered by RFC8890 etc)
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:24:43Z"}, {"author": "Colin Whorlow", "text": "@sofia there is some incipient work in ETSI on Technology Enabled Coercive Control which has some overlaps with your draft I think
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:24:48Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "@Colin, interesting.. can you send some links?
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:25:23Z"}, {"author": "Colin Whorlow", "text": "Will do
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:25:33Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "thank you!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:25:56Z"}, {"author": "Vittorio Bertola", "text": "@Mohammad Al Abbadi Well, all authoritarian goverments (and even the European ones, at times) say that they are just applying Article 29 of the UDHR... there is always an interpretation and a balance that different stakeholders set differently. This is why the multistakeholder model was conceived.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:26:39Z"}, {"author": "Mallory Knodel", "text": "@vittorio no, i think that's a rather oversimplification in response to the general point
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:27:44Z"}, {"author": "Vittorio Bertola", "text": "The GNAP issue is quite important, I agree
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:28:38Z"}, {"author": "Mohammad Al Abbadi", "text": "I refer back to @mallory's input, having human rights advocacy organisations as a watchdog in the conversation is useful, but it doesn't replace or absolve state obligation or company responsibility.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:29:17Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@Mohammad Agreed, but the IETF community as a whole lacks legitimacy to make decisions in this area without the input of the broader multistakeholder community
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:31:07Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "Andrew: how does the IETF gain \"legitimacy\" to make the decisions that it is already making then?
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:31:45Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "yes! please, chime in the list re rechartering
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:31:56Z"}, {"author": "avri doria", "text": "wonderful session. now that i have gotten some distance as an ex-cochair, i am able to appreciate it again.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:32:05Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "thank you!!
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:32:24Z"}, {"author": "Corinne Cath", "text": "thanks all
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:32:29Z"}, {"author": "Nick Doty", "text": "thanks all! useful talks, and discussion, and backchannel conversation
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:32:59Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@DKG As per my earlier post, I believe that it needs to defer to those parts of the multistakeholder community that do have legitimacy.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:33:02Z"}, {"author": "Mohammad Al Abbadi", "text": "Again, Human Rights is a universal framework, and I believe the IETF has a responsibility there. Legitimacy or standing or authority don't apply here. There isn't one body that has that over human rights.
", "time": "2022-11-11T11:33:22Z"}]