[{"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

Thanks for joining!

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:00:23Z"}, {"author": "Jean Queralt", "text": "

Curious as to what is that circle... screen? that I see on Camera 1.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:00:53Z"}, {"author": "Francois Nguyen", "text": "

@Jean Queralt it looks like an antenna

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:06:43Z"}, {"author": "\u67f3\u7530 \u6dbc", "text": "

Hope no one from FCC is around? Or hope they are around? (not sure which one to wish for) \u2013 Ryo

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:07:53Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

Ah, the slow pace of progress! Workshop in 2021, journal paper in 2023!

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:09:49Z"}, {"author": "Marie-Jose Montpetit", "text": "

Can someone put the link here?

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:10:09Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

the link is on the slide

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:10:22Z"}, {"author": "Marie-Jose Montpetit", "text": "

ok will download the slides :)

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:10:47Z"}, {"author": "Francois Nguyen", "text": "


", "time": "2023-07-25T20:11:00Z"}, {"author": "Jean Queralt", "text": "

@Francois Yes, once people moved around it that was became hypothesis 2. Still intriguing.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:11:08Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

Christian, we are just slow-starting:-)

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:11:09Z"}, {"author": "Marie-Jose Montpetit", "text": "


", "time": "2023-07-25T20:12:12Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

whoever with questions, please line up

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:34:22Z"}, {"author": "David Oliver", "text": "

Thank you Cory!

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:40:38Z"}, {"author": "Russ White", "text": "

I have a specific suggestion ... force any company that filters content to have an open interface through which researchers can push \"tests posts\" to see how the post is filtered ... I know this would not be entirely accurate because different users are filtered differently, but perhaps there is a path forward in just exposing the filtering's effects without exposing their filtering systems

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:42:31Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "

@Russ - interesting idea - a similar approach was what uncovered that amazon ws giving different pricing to users in different geographies based on presumed price sensitivity and other factors

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:44:00Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

Big is indeed the problem, because big enough soon implies collusion with governments.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:44:43Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

\"collusion with governments\" -- maybe mitigatible if we have strong auditing and law enforcement

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:46:10Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

We have to move on and have close the queue. Please send question to the list.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:46:56Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

Think of the government asking Google to tell them the names of users near a particular cell tower yesterday. That's an example of collusion.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:47:23Z"}, {"author": "Jean Queralt", "text": "

OK, I like that title.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:48:28Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "

@christian there are two sides to that coin a)a big enough firm can successfully say no (e.g. Apple) when a small firm can't, b)a big firm can extract further power by being the only place the government can go to get the data

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:49:19Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

Well, Apple is not exactly saying No in China, are they?

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:50:29Z"}, {"author": "Mohammad Jauhar", "text": "

I don't think there is any escape to government directives in most parts of the world.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:51:32Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "

For the China case it's less collusion than the power balance where the government has (nearly) unlimited power

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:52:01Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

The firms will always evaluate product features like privacy versus product risks like antitrust, and will very much always compromise.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:52:21Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

sorry for the time limit, please do type in your questions here to share.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:55:36Z"}, {"author": "Mohammad Jauhar", "text": "

what is the dinrg mailing list?

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:55:54Z"}, {"author": "\u67f3\u7530 \u6dbc", "text": "


", "time": "2023-07-25T20:56:26Z"}, {"author": "Vittorio Bertola", "text": "

I think we should have a question for ourselves: what can be done via protocol development about this... as a minimum, make sure that any new protocol can realistically work with any number of operators of any size.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:56:32Z"}, {"author": "Mohammad Jauhar", "text": "

\u67f3\u7530 \u6dbc said:




Thank you

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:56:50Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "

The person taking notes is a saint, I am amused and embarrassed, I cannot keep up with Cory Doctorow.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:56:50Z"}, {"author": "Thomas Hardjono", "text": "

@Cory: what would you advice the EU with regards to the things you mentioned today?

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:56:59Z"}, {"author": "Thomas Hardjono", "text": "

The EU just voted to pass the MICA regulation on digital assets, which is a good start but shows them willing to tackle hard issues.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:57:46Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

@Thomas, here's an EU-centric appendix to a paper I co-wrote with my colleagues Bennett Cyphers and Christoph Schmon: https://www.eff.org/wp/interoperability-and-privacy#gdpr

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:58:05Z"}, {"author": "Thomas Hardjono", "text": "

@Cory: thanks.

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:58:43Z"}, {"author": "Marie-Jose Montpetit", "text": "

Are there any slides?

", "time": "2023-07-25T20:58:58Z"}, {"author": "Monika Ermert", "text": "

@Cory Are you really optimistic that the large platforms will \"burn\"?

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:00:00Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

@Monika, as Stein's law goes, \"Anything that can't go on forever will eventually stop.\"

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:00:18Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "

@Cory Doctorow , I met you long ago in DC, pretty cool to know you come to IETF. Not sure this is gonna be easy to answer here. Here at IETF we write specs and pray (as Martin Duke hinted) that if we spec it, \"they\" (builders) will come. But learning how to implement such technology and maintaining implementations does not scale easily. That is why IETF volunteers are awesome. How do we incentivize users who want to run not just use their tech? Is that going to come up in the book, I look forward to it either way.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:00:38Z"}, {"author": "Allison Mankin", "text": "

IETF succeeded in the 90s in defeating massive forces against interoperability - what can we do this time? That is, I think we were in Act 3 with the telcos and other pre-Internet incumbents throughout the world in the 90s, and helped to make things better. Thanks @Cory Doctorow for speaking of the issues now to IETF/IRTF!

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:01:07Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

@AJ We do need tools to point to in order to bolster the claims that it's possible to make a different, better internet - but the artificially high switching costs are what stand in the way of wide adoption of those tools

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:02:07Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Trossen", "text": "

Cory Doctorow said:


@Monika, as Stein's law goes, \"Anything that can't go on forever will eventually stop.\"
\nCory Doctorow what do you see could be the match that is lightened up for the platforms to burn? Twitter purchase (having driven numbers on mastodon)? Or something else?

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:03:48Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

@Allison I remember those days (and the W3C, too!) - I think they were downstream of the market structure. A sector made up of highly competitive firms jostling for market share will see lots of interop uptake (real, competitive interop helps new market entrants). A sector calcified into a handful of dominant incumbents will only see the limited interop that helps incumbents (making it easy for business customers to upload their inventories, say), but not the interop that hurts them (making it easy for business customers to change payment processors , say)

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:04:56Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "

I wonder how the increasing \"takeover\" of the Internet's physical and interconnection infrastructure by the \"big four\" makes it hard to displace them even if the users go to other application platforms? They own a troubling share of the computing infrastructure as well - note how much of Amazon's current profit comes from AWS. It isn't the majority, but maybe enough to control the evolution of other aspects of the tech environment.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:05:07Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "

@David Oran yes, and along with it we see a starvation of capabilities, limiting options to effectively operate decentralized infrastructure, which is an effective mechanic in the capturing practices of the b4.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:06:15Z"}, {"author": "Wolfgang Beck", "text": "

telcos had their monopolies limited by national regulations; often there was one telco per country. They had to interoperate for international connections. The lack of borders lead to global monopolies that have far less need for interoperability

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:06:31Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

@Dirk, I think new platforms grow through a \"scalloped growth curve\" as shocks (scandals, system failures, etc) drive users to try something new, with some of those tasters quickly retreating back to the familiar place: https://doctorow.medium.com/of-course-mastodon-lost-users-c48ef8102891

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:06:41Z"}, {"author": "Neal McBurnett", "text": "

ChatGPT, please summarize the last 10 minutes of presentation into a sentence or two of insightful text in the style of Cory Doctorow.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:07:24Z"}, {"author": "Mohammad Jauhar", "text": "

I think regulatory drives from countries other than the US would drive this since tech sector is primarily a function of the US and it's in other countries economic interests that they force interoperability to bring local innovation.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:08:07Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

@Dirk and because social media is driven by network effects, it can experience rapid collapse as key nodes leave - if you're on the service because someone there matters to you, their departure can trigger your own. Here's danah boyd on how that played out at the end of Myspace:http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2022/12/05/what-if-failure-is-the-plan.html

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:08:26Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

\"neo-Bradeisian movement\"...

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:10:32Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

I think it's broadly and empirically true that the views I presented are representative of the current position of the FTC, the White House, the DoJ Antitrust Division, the UK Competition and Markets Authority, and the EU Commission

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:12:37Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

I can cite the EOs, CMA papers, and EU directives.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:13:00Z"}, {"author": "Monika Ermert", "text": "

@Cory - so do we mainly rely on legislators for the controlled fires?

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:16:46Z"}, {"author": "Wolfgang Beck", "text": "

We have those globally dominant centralized platforms because technology has become too scalable.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:16:52Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

Adding to David Oran\u2019s point above, the influence is further extended by, for example, the way that control can be exerted over traffic routing across networks not under their direct ownership

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:17:54Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "

So how is the California power grid doing?

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:18:03Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

US telecoms was only partially built by AT&T: rural electrification co-ops from the New Deal pivoted to rural telephone co-ops; some of these are still around and providing fiber. A lot of the regulatory response to ATT for 60+ years related to anticompettiive and bullying tactics aimed at these co-ops

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:18:10Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

@Monika I think there's two things we need from our regulators: first, withdraw the regulatory protections for platforms (the ability to prohibit reverse engineering, etc); second impose protections for users (privacy, prohibitions on unfair and deceptive practices, etc)

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:19:28Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "

13 Propositions on an Internet for a \u201cBurning World. https://pure.mpg.de/rest/items/item_3390006_3/component/file_3456420/content << Paper including the proposition on careful operation of (digital) infrastructure. (https://ripe85.ripe.net/archives/video/877/ << also as a talk)

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:19:54Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

@Cory I\u2019d add controls (preferably prohibitions) on surveillance capitalism to your list

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:20:50Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "

And some other aspect of (de)centralization and data: \"Heads in the Clouds? Measuring Universities\u2019 Migration to Public Clouds: Implications for Privacy & Academic Freedom\", https://pure.mpg.de/rest/items/item_3480830_3/component/file_3482426/content

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:21:32Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

@Andrew - I think privacy laws with a private right of action would get there: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/01/you-should-have-right-sue-companies-violate-your-privacy (private right of action is key!)

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:21:34Z"}, {"author": "William Lehr", "text": "

Since sharing papers... we have bunch we would love feedback on... see our slides and

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:21:36Z"}, {"author": "William Lehr", "text": "

Lehr, W. (2023), \u201cGetting to the Broadband Future Efficiently with BEAD funding,\u201d white paper prepared with support from WISPA, January 2023, available at https://www.wispa.org/docs/Lehr_White_Paper_Final.pdf
\nLehr, W. (2022), \u201c5G and AI Convergence, and the Challenge of Regulating Smart Contracts,\u201d in Europe\u2019s Future Connected: Policies and Challenges for 5G and 6G Networks, edited by E. Bohlin and F. Cappelletti, European Liberal Forum (ELF), pages 72-80, available at https://liberalforum.eu/publication/europes-future-connected-policies-and-challenges-for-5g-and-6g-networks/.
\nLehr, W. and V. Stocker (2023), \"Next-generation Networks: Necessity of Edge Sharing,\" forthcoming Frontiers in Computer Science: Networks and Communications, Summer 2023
\nOughton, E., W. Lehr, K. Katsaros, I. Selinis, D. Bubley, and J. Kusuma (2021), \"Revisiting Wireless Internet Connectivity: 5G vs. Wi-Fi 6,\" Telecommunications Policy, 45 (2021) 102127, available at https://authors.elsevier.com/sd/article/S0308-5961(21)00032-X.
\nStocker, V. and W. Lehr (2022), \u201cRegulatory Policy for Broadband: A Response to the \u2018ETNO Report\u2019s\u2019 Proposal for Intervention in Europe\u2019s Internet Ecosystem,\u201d white paper, available at https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4263096.
\nStocker, V., Smaragdakis, G., and Lehr, W. (2020). The state of network neutrality regulation. SIGCOMM Comput. Commun. Rev. 50, 1 (January 2020), 45\u201359. https://doi.org/10.1145/3390251.3390258
\nWork in progress
\nFrias, Z., Mendo, L., Lehr, W. and Stocker, V. (2023), \"Measuring NextGen Mobile Broadband: Challenges and Research Agenda for Policymaking\", 32nd European International Telecommunications Society Conference (EuroITS2023), June 19-20, Madrid, Spain.
\nLehr, W., D. Sicker, D. Raychaudhuri, V. Singh (2023), \u201cEdge Computing: digital infrastructure beyond broadband connectivity,\u201d TPRC51: Annual Research Conference on Communications, Information and Internet Policy, September 22-23, 2023, American University, Washington DC
\nStocker, V. Bauer, J., and Pourdamghani, A. (2023). \"Innovation Dynamics in the Internet Ecosystem & Digital Economy Policy\u201d,, 32nd European International Telecommunications Society Conference (EuroITS2023), June 19-20, Madrid, Spain.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:21:38Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "

@christian - if public keys are O(3K) - about right for today, does that mean it will take you 15 months to get it broadcast?

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:26:55Z"}, {"author": "Cory Doctorow", "text": "

\"Pocket switched network\" is GEEEEENIUS

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:28:12Z"}, {"author": "Wolfgang Beck", "text": "

but running my lighthouse requires effort. I leave it to the convenient centralized cloud service.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:28:27Z"}, {"author": "\u67f3\u7530 \u6dbc", "text": "

So MANET? - Ryo

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:28:48Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

Millions of people exchanging USB keys would have some unique security challenges

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:29:17Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

Also, if the want the broadcast to be authenticated somehow, then we have just built a layer of indirection -- not to find the data, but to find the key authenticating the data

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:30:44Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

Ah, signing parties! The reason why PGP works so well in practice.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:31:16Z"}, {"author": "Roland Bless", "text": "

I am also a bit sceptic about security issues...

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:31:23Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "

@christian - why do you think web of trust approaches haven't been successful?

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:31:35Z"}, {"author": "Wolfgang Beck", "text": "
  1. somebody has a great idea for a decentralized platform 2. It's not trivial to set up for non-technical people 3. somebody implements it as a centralized platform and gets rich.
  2. \n
", "time": "2023-07-25T21:31:39Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

@David Oran classic triangle issue: unique -- firendly -- secure, pick two

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:32:57Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "

@wolfgang - i suspect only some in the community remember the thinking in the early days of eCommerce that the Internet would disintermediate and allow direct commerce between individuals an small businesses without intermediaries capturing most of the value. Then along came Amazon...

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:33:49Z"}, {"author": "Vittorio Bertola", "text": "

Yes, many services start up as facilitators for decentralized technology and end up becoming centralized platforms in a dominant position.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:34:21Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Trossen", "text": "

Wolfgang Beck said:

  1. somebody has a great idea for a decentralized platform 2. It's not trivial to set up for non-technical people 3. somebody implements it as a centralized platform and gets rich.
  2. \n

Started doing this some three years ago, i.e., build your own service infrastructure. It is possible but you are right that it is still (too) hard. Why is that? Technical difficulties or obscure purpose to ensure pushing people into 'managed platforms'?

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:34:33Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

@Christian It is not impossible to engineer all three if it is necessary

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:34:46Z"}, {"author": "Jean Queralt", "text": "

Thanks for the session.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:34:50Z"}, {"author": "Colin Perkins", "text": "

Thanks everyone - interesting session!

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:34:50Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

But on the other end I do agree with the other Christian that this is a most interesting problem to solve

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:34:51Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "

We're seeing a recapitulation of this falsity in the cryptocurrency world where the lack of trusted intermediaries makes things way worse. We need TRUSTED intermediaries.

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:34:51Z"}, {"author": "Christian Huitema", "text": "

@lixia maybe, but getting all 3 in a decentralized way is really hard

", "time": "2023-07-25T21:35:30Z"}]