greetings from Brisbane
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:00:17Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "Hello from the second row of the room.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:02:12Z"}, {"author": "Tara Tarakiyee", "text": "Hello from the Internet
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:04:49Z"}, {"author": "Jean Queralt", "text": "That escalated quickly.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:09:04Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "Voyager 1 was not able to register with Meetecho (it would have been (\"Hello from outer space\") https://blogs.nasa.gov/sunspot/2023/12/12/engineers-working-to-resolve-issue-with-voyager-1-computer/
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:11:08Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "Had some exposure to another S.E.Asian economy which does state central planning on a fixed cycle. they said that a modification within the law was a 18month burden eg a ministerial clarification. A rewording was a 5 year burden, a totally new law was a 10+ year burden
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:12:06Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I think Xing Li's timeline would conform to that basic model
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:12:27Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "given concerns about risks in AI I personally think regulate first then business isn't such a bad model!
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:13:36Z"}, {"author": "Tara Tarakiyee", "text": "@Andrew: The OONI observatory has a report on HTTP/3 blocking in China and lots of data as well
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:24:48Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@Tara Thanks, useful to know
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:29:44Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I thought that preso was very interesting overall. Big thanks to Xing Li for presenting!
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:32:38Z"}, {"author": "Geoff Huston", "text": "Yes, big thanks for this presentation!
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:35:17Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@Tobias Interesting point. You could of course argue the reverse too - that actions at the technical level lead to fragmentation in the other areas.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:35:52Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I'm thinking very unfair thoughts about federal/state structural separation and the problems it causes leaving this to the states
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:38:11Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "Perhaps all economies at some scale have these problems
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:38:21Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "but it feels like a bit of a systemic failure
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:38:30Z"}, {"author": "Vittorio Bertola", "text": "In general, governmental fragmentation is a response to a lack of support for national public policy objectives either by the Internet's technical architecture or by the business practices of the global Internet companies.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:38:45Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "there's a lot of FUD around combined ID and data matching and gov centrality risks
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:39:04Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "but also some legit. concerns of course
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:39:18Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "also a v interesting topic. unsure how I see it feeding into work in this space but research sometimes is less immediately applicable so thats OK too
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:40:12Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "\"Universal Basic Mobility\"
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:42:17Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "scooters are not a net positive.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:43:16Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "impact on the pavement for less mobile peeps very high, huge increase in incidental accident reports to hospital.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:43:39Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "FWIW: some of the \"SSI\" work, dates back to stuff like: https://www.windley.com/docs/ID_in_eGovernment.pdf
\nbut 'DID' in those works was defined as 'decentralised IDentity' not 'Decentralised IDentifiers'...
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:43:49Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "need to design the streetscape for things, cant add without downsides
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:43:57Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "Seems like for a service to believe your (electronic) documents you need a provable identity - if there's only one across all the services then you've centralized identity in a potentially dangerous way; if you need a separate identity per service the problem of proving your documents seems inherently not sharable across services. The services have to be either centralized to use the same identity, or coordinated to use some form of federated identity.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:44:32Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "IMHO: the work done to define Verifiable Credentials, et.al. for 'SSI\" approaches, based upon wallets; should also support 'vaults'...
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:45:21Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "personal ontology systems, kinda different to professional identity wallets, or similar.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:45:37Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "@david lots of work here. the med record online space has models for this, to allow physios to see some recs but your reproductive history is locked, emergency overrides &c
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:45:40Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "a lot of this sounds like \"leaving a trail of digital breadcrumbs behind you\" stuff
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:46:43Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "people who weaponise the \"20 minute city\" meme into permission to be outside 20min of your home, would walk into this and say SEE WE TOLD YOU.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:47:19Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "IMHO: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/2014/08/06/call-for-participation-in-credentials-community-group/ & https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webpayments/2014May/0033.html
\nwere intended to support other components. +100 for Solid as a baseline...
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:47:55Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "Back to China and TLS 1.3. I requested RIPE Atlas probes in China to do DoT against my server and I observe they do it with TLS 1.3 and it works.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:48:29Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "nb also: https://www.w3.org/WoT/
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:48:59Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "FWIW: https://www.w3.org/community/solid/
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:49:33Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "@St\u00e9phane thanks, good to know, another urban myth
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:50:26Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "@Andrew The GFW being what it is, it is also possible that TLS 1.3 is blocked in some chinese networks.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:51:26Z"}, {"author": "Jim Reid", "text": "Stephane, any data on TLS1.3 and ECH in China?
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:51:27Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "@Jim Sorry, I don't have a machine in China and I don't think RIPE Atlas probes can do ECH.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:52:15Z"}, {"author": "Tara Tarakiyee", "text": "For unlinkability and selective disclosure, https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/spice/about/ would be relevant.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:52:30Z"}, {"author": "Jim Reid", "text": "Thanks Stephane.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:52:46Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "enterprise implementation devdocs,
\nhttps://www.inrupt.com/products/developer-portal
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:53:10Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "@Timothy I'm among the people who do not understand Solid at all. Lots of talk, little substance.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:53:20Z"}, {"author": "Hans-J\u00f6rg Happel", "text": "Quick pointer to tomorrow's \"structured email\" session with respect to sharing of structured data. This might perhaps be interesting for some use cases in the PASS architecture?
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:53:29Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "@stephane I'm happy to provide background...
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:53:44Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "there's a few more than two ;)
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:54:25Z"}, {"author": "Tara Tarakiyee", "text": "Wilfred: The Zulip chat is preserved and there's a direct link to that in the agenda.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:54:34Z"}, {"author": "Timothy Holborn", "text": "mydata.org has various other broader ecosystems to be considered, inc. need for interop, etc.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:54:49Z"}, {"author": "Tara Tarakiyee", "text": "https://zulip.ietf.org/#narrow/stream/dinrg
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:55:02Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "My belief is that the GFC and the DNS in china have to be modelled as a set of things, with complex behaviours, and so can't be said to be \"one thing\"
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:55:17Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "so one persons target can do TLS != TLS to facebook always works
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:55:34Z"}, {"author": "Colin Perkins", "text": "The chat log and recording will appear at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/119/session/dinrg after the meeting (takes a few hours sometimes)
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:56:24Z"}, {"author": "Tara Tarakiyee", "text": "The OONI data shows it's varies between ASes and is host dependent so that checks out.
", "time": "2024-03-21T03:58:19Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "reminds me of \"whiteboard\" (van jacobsen) and a mutable Merkle Tree of edit state
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:05:27Z"}, {"author": "Joerg Ott", "text": "The local frist reminds me on the opportunistic networking work we did with local infrastructure quite some time back. The old web site still exists, cf. https://liberouter.mobi and there are a bunch of papers surrounding this topic, including https://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~jo/papers/2014-04-wons-liberouter.pdf as a design overview. Did some early work on document editing uses three-way merges (https://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~jo/papers/2014-09-chants-opp-merge.pdf) that Teemu K\u00e4rkk\u00e4inen documented more extensively in his excellent PhD thesis.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:06:13Z"}, {"author": "George Michaelson", "text": "I guess the critical part is mapping these things into the NDN which is pretty different to normal IP
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:07:46Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "Remember also Google Wave.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:08:27Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "Also : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merge_(version_control)
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:08:34Z"}, {"author": "Alexandr Railean", "text": "What does 'ndn' stand for?
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:09:11Z"}, {"author": "Ingram Niblock", "text": "I think it\u2019s this: https://named-data.net/
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:09:40Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "Google deleted everything about Google Wave http://waveprotocol.org/
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:10:35Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "Can you DOS a Repo by blasting it with invalid updates that it has to store (since it isn't itself a provable member of the sync group)?
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:13:24Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "Similarly, can you
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:14:00Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "DOS a workplace by blasting out SVS sync messages with invalid signature that have to be shocked and eat computational load on all the machines?
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:14:32Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "sorry shocked->checked
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:15:06Z"}, {"author": "Wilfred Pinfold", "text": "Thank you for all the pointers especially @Timothy.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:16:29Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Fregly", "text": "I find some similiarities between this and cloud storage and edit synchronization services such as Dropbox, Google Docs, Evernote and the like that support offline activities and later synchronization across groups.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:26:55Z"}, {"author": "Varun Patil", "text": "The difference: all of these use centralized control server
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:27:20Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "for Dirk's question, I'd direct people to this 2012 paper \"CAP Twelve Years Later: How the \u201cRules\u201d Have Changed\"
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:27:29Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Fregly", "text": "We use Atlassian wikis that seem to handle multiple simultaneous editors fairly well.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:28:03Z"}, {"author": "Varun Patil", "text": "Conflict resolution in textual data is actually pretty easy, we largely use the yjs implementation out-of-the-box and it works quite well
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:29:00Z"}, {"author": "Xinyu Ma", "text": "Yeah, the goal of our effort is to achieve the same functionalities as existing services, but with decentralized security and connectivity.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:30:02Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Fregly", "text": "It would be interesting for decentralized synchronization to go through the various test scenarios that are challenging for synchronization, such as how inconsistent states are avoided when there are multiple offline editors.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:31:34Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "So, regarding email, we built this little sending test: https://email-security-scans.org/
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:37:00Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "Which allows testing for standards compliance in _sending_ (in contrast to common receiving focused tests)
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:38:58Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Fregly", "text": "Some centralization seems to be driven by the need for large user bases that need to interoperate.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:41:23Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "massive scale, massive centrality, AND massive vertical integration!
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:41:42Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "@Andrew: Also see \"Embrace, Extend, Extinguish\"
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:41:57Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "Do everything from the chips to the apps.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:42:05Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Fregly", "text": "Does decentralization inherently assume disconnected user bases that don't necessarily need interoperability.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:42:52Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "no, but it does assume users who value reliability and predictability over privacy and choice.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:43:43Z"}, {"author": "Shigeya Suzuki", "text": "David Oran, would you please mute. (I can hear your typing...)
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:44:29Z"}, {"author": "Michael Hollyman", "text": "David you might mute for the keyboard noise :)
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:44:43Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "Does ANYBODY think we can make even a small dot in the centralization problems (especially of user data) with anything other than regulations and aggressive anti-trust?
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:44:55Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "potty - didn't realize I had forgotten to mute...!
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:45:13Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "Yes, here!
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:45:20Z"}, {"author": "Varun Patil", "text": "Me
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:45:24Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "Well... my assumption is \"world will fall apart, central entities will collapse along with society, and we will then have to figure things out\"
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:46:08Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "But it _is_ without antitrust. If we want to preempt that falling apart ... part; Well, then we will have to go for aggressive anti-trust and regulation, i guess.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:46:48Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Fregly", "text": "Without user comprehension of control mechanisms for managing and exposing their data, it seems regulation forcing the centralized services to provide for user control over their data.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:46:58Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "@David \"Small dot\" is already there. People developing wthout Github, using OSM instead of Google Maps, etc. Small dot but it already exists.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:47:11Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "Yes, usually hosted on EC2, OVH, Hetzner, Linode, or DO. ;-P
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:47:47Z"}, {"author": "Varun Patil", "text": "I maintain a FOSS google photos alternative that has few 10k deployment ... small dot from my side
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:48:12Z"}, {"author": "St\u00e9phane Bortzmeyer", "text": "@Tobias So? It has to be hosted somewhere.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:48:20Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "Yes. But we also need more distributed hosting opportunities.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:48:53Z"}, {"author": "Tobias Fiebig", "text": "Which ties in with the whole IPv4/IPv6 issue, as the scarcity of the former makes this unnecessarily harder.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:50:16Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "@DaveO we'll agree with the necessity of regulation, (1) that does not mean technology is not important (still need tech solutions to support the regulated operations), (2) need to help regulators figure out what/how to regulate (this directly relates to how the right tech solutions work)
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:50:31Z"}, {"author": "Vittorio Bertola", "text": "To clarify, I think that both factors are causing email centralization - increased technical complexity and artificial lock-in and rejection of interoperability (with the excuse of spam/security) by Gmail and a few other dominant platforms.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:53:50Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "Why don't I worry that my Bank (which is one of the giants) will misuse my personal data and mess with my finances? It's because the SEC, the Federal reserve, and the FTC all have constrained them via sufficient regulation. I like doing my finances with a bank big enough to provide the convenience and safety I value.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:54:52Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "We need similar strong oversight for social networks, commercial aggregators like Amazon, and ad-based services from Google et. al.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:55:48Z"}, {"author": "Man Zhang", "text": "I think it's important to figure out the boundary: what should be centralized and what should be decentralied, from the current considerations at least.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:56:46Z"}, {"author": "Varun Patil", "text": "Banks use that money to make a lot of money themselves. Are users ready to pay (much) higher costs for social networks?
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:56:48Z"}, {"author": "Alexandr Railean", "text": "Re: email - if you want a small email sever for your personal domain for your family, you don't have the challenges that big players have. You can even run it on a raspberry pi.
\nThe problem will be in having your messages accepted by the big players.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:56:50Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Fregly", "text": "One issue to address is the hidden cost of \"free\" services. This allows organizations performing consolidation to build ever bigger user bases and increase centralizations.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:57:58Z"}, {"author": "Alexandr Railean", "text": "Varun Patil said:
\n\n\nBanks use that money to make a lot of money themselves. Are users ready to pay (much) higher costs for social networks?
\n
If you make it transparent - then they at least can choose, do I want a free service where \"I am the product\", or do I want one that costs money and respects my humanity?
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:58:00Z"}, {"author": "Vittorio Bertola", "text": "@Alexandr Yes, as long as you can setup SPF, DKIM and DMARC on your own, otherwise even the small players will reject your email.
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:58:16Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "@varun: cars would be lot cheaper if we didn't regulate them for safety and efficiency. if regulated social networks can't make money without users paying for subscriptions, then i guess they aa't of much intrinsic value in the first place?
", "time": "2024-03-21T04:58:28Z"}, {"author": "David Oran", "text": "@aeksndr: we have that experiment going with streaming now that their are \"ad supported\" and \"ad free\" tiers.
", "time": "2024-03-21T05:00:16Z"}, {"author": "Alexandr Railean", "text": "Vittorio Bertola said:
\n\n\n@Alexandr Yes, as long as you can setup SPF, DKIM and DMARC on your own, otherwise even the small players will reject your email.
\n
Of course, it is implied that those are set up. That is achievable by reading some tutorials.
\nHowever, reality is that even if you do that - it will still not be enough to be sure that your messages will be delivered to others.
", "time": "2024-03-21T05:00:27Z"}]