Marco, I don't remember for sure whether we renewed the pact this time: Will CBOR and CoRE trade minutes again?
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:30:13Z"}, {"author": "Marco Tiloca", "text": "Totally :-)
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:30:26Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "Thanks; I'm around to assist as well.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:30:54Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "You might turn your gain down a bit Carsten.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:33:58Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "you cant hear us
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:34:09Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "but your audio is good
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:34:16Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "A good strategy for presentations, if I do say so.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:34:38Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "I am very excited for a zinger slogan, let's make some shirts!
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:39:38Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Yes, Carsten, yes!!! I love word play. (I doubt I'm unique there.)
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:39:53Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "That shirt needs to go into my spreadshirt shop :-)
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:40:22Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Is ABNF really intended _just_ for interchange and protocol formats? I am curious if this strategy used here for EDN has been used by others in IETF/elsewhere.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:43:01Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "It's not a property of ABNF, but its absence happens to strongly discourage using it that way.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:43:32Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "I am using arrays as map keys in a specification I am writing.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:44:31Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Hmmm, I guess I need to read the SUIT manifest specs to understand why you would want an array as a key. Sounds cool.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:45:06Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "AJS: An easier example is if you encode some kind of sparse matrix.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:45:30Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Chris Lemmons said:
\n\n\nI am using arrays as map keys in a specification I am writing.
\n
Composite claims?
\nhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lemmons-composite-claims/
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:46:45Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "Yup. It's used in the env field.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:47:48Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Christian Ams\u00fcss said:
\n\n\nAJS: An easier example is if you encode some kind of sparse matrix.
\n
I have colleagues in NIST who do lots of research around graph search optimization with sparse trees and clever math. I've talked to them about CBOR around this idea being maybe possible and they were intrigued to make things more tightly packed and faster to exchange. So this observation is wonderful news! I thought this may be possible useful but hadn't had that need yet in what I do.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:47:54Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "And yes, it's very due for an update.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:48:01Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "I always found calling new app-strings \"tags\" is likely to cause confusing with CBOR tags among folks outside the WG.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:48:03Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "Do you have an alternative suggestion?
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:48:55Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "app-string prefix or just prefix
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:49:55Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "or just app-string
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:50:08Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "app-string prefix / prefix sounds good to me. (app-string is probably the whole thing, prefix plus content)
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:50:24Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Agreed to observation and Rohan and Christian's recommendations.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:50:37Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Are constants an extension? I guess it would ruin things to switch to ~c''~ and confuse with the name of the draft.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:52:08Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "So ... maybe nevermind then.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:52:13Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "I at one point used ip'127.0.0.1' in a spec, but everybody got confused and just assumed I meant \"127.0.0.1\". I wound up going back and leaning on the intuition people have with JSON. People have been confused enough with the basics. :(
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:52:15Z"}, {"author": "Ira McDonald", "text": "Ira joining late and listening
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:52:38Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "If you have questions please que
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:52:38Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "(You don't need to voice or handle my comments, I'll come to the mic if I need to. :) )
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:52:52Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "AJS: The constants used in e'' are not coming from EDN, they come from CDDL
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:53:47Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "CL: I hope that prefixed values will make this more visible -- someone might have the intuition to treat ' and \" identically, but if it says ip'127.0.0.1', I'd hope this stands out far enough that people read up or just ask.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:55:46Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "(all notes here are \"from the floor\")
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:56:16Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Christian Ams\u00fcss said:
\n\n\nAJS: The constants used in e'' are not coming from EDN, they come from CDDL
\n
Ah, see I am glad I posit questions/comments in the chat _before_ going to the mic and making the ignorance more obvious, thank you!
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:56:52Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "It's fine to ask more widely just as well; usually for everyone asking a question there are 3 more who didn't dare to.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:57:46Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "So whatever works :-)
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:57:53Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "CA: Yeah. I think what I'm running into is that I'm effectively trying to handhold people through CBOR in addition to the specification I'm writing. My audience is not nearly as familiar with CBOR generally.
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:58:05Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "FYI: a lot of the ABNF we reference from old specs is actually wrong (i.e. often has errors)
", "time": "2024-07-26T22:58:21Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "my hand is up for the previous slide (slide 13)
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:02:52Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "(tag 999 processing)
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:03:09Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "That's the last slide on this topic, so we'll be in Q&A in a second anyway.
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:03:37Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "Carsten, there is Echo from you again :-(
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:07:15Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "mute if you are remote, or in room... there is some echo
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:07:19Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "So is EABNF on the horizon if CBOR WG wants an ABNF to behave the way the authors of this draft want it to behave a different way? Trying to make sure I understand Pete. (And the EABNF is a joke name and not to be serious.)
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:12:03Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@AJ: Yeah, it's starting to sound like you want a new almost-the-same-but-different version of ABNF.
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:18:13Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Forcing an implementation is not what the documentation should be doing.
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:19:02Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Pete Resnick said:
\n\n\n@AJ: Yeah, it's starting to sound like you want a new almost-the-same-but-different version of ABNF.
\n
OK, glad I understood your point, I was worried I did not as we got in the weeds. That said, I read the emails without looking at draft and considering examples to understand Carsten's perspective here. Thanks for the explanation.
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:19:04Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "does .json escape/unescape double quotes?
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:39:39Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Barry: FYI - You have the queue closed.
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:40:14Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "where is .abnf now?
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:42:57Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": ":thumbs_up:
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:43:14Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "Rohan Mahy said:
\n\n\nwhere is .abnf now?
\n
In 9165, the predecessor RFC to this, aka -control before the -more-control, that help?
\nhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9165/
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:46:58Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "yes, thx
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:47:23Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "(I was confused having been the -more-control shephered and was embarassed I couldn't immediately remember without checking, so thanks for asking!)
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:47:56Z"}, {"author": "A.J. Stein", "text": "WGLC is ok with me.
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:48:35Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "I concur with AJS, including not having read the latest draft.
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:49:13Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "(But have read previous drafts.)
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:49:32Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "Another item in the 1% is EDHOC.
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:56:16Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "I was surprised that prohibiting duplicate keys was omitted from basic serialization (Appendix B.2)
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:56:51Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Rohan: GOod point, that is not omitted, but should be called out explicitly
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:57:42Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "prohibiting duplicate keys is only in CDE (Appendix B.3)
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:58:19Z"}, {"author": "Rohan Mahy", "text": "its easy to imagine sorting maps being not needed in some applications and needed in others, but I think non-duplicate keys is much more consistent with Basic Serialization
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:58:49Z"}, {"author": "Christian Ams\u00fcss", "text": "Duplicate map keys are already not valid CBOR
", "time": "2024-07-26T23:59:02Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "It looks like we're not going to have queue time, so I'll put it here. I am currently using CDE for variability reduction, exactly as this says. But, we relax this to not require map ordering because it can be used to communicate useful (but not required) information.
", "time": "2024-07-27T00:00:35Z"}, {"author": "Chris Lemmons", "text": "Thank you all!
", "time": "2024-07-27T00:02:22Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "Thanks to those who are remote!
", "time": "2024-07-27T00:02:23Z"}, {"author": "Marco Tiloca", "text": "Thank you all!
", "time": "2024-07-27T00:02:31Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Chris: So you really want Basic Serialization. Can you live with the name?
", "time": "2024-07-27T00:02:55Z"}]