that said, if anyone wants to join in the \"double check the note taking\" fun, you are more than welcome -- I promise not to make you fix anything Brian send my way
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:04:03Z"}, {"author": "Brian Haberman", "text": "Please not that we would like to limit mic comments during the presentations to clarifying questions.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:09:29Z"}, {"author": "Brian Haberman", "text": "We have a dedicated discussion slot for actual discussion of the requirements.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:09:52Z"}, {"author": "Tim Wicinski", "text": "FYI - I opened an issue on Erik's comments that Tale just mentioned.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:12:19Z"}, {"author": "Roy Arends", "text": "I have missed the part that allows DS aliasing.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:18:03Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin Schwartz", "text": "I think DS aliasing would be covered by a \"multi-operator\" requirement
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:19:45Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "Roy Arends said:
\n\n\nI have missed the part that allows DS aliasing.
\n
\"DELEG should enable a DNS operator to manage DNS service more completely on behalf of registrants\"
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:29:07Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "\"more completely\" than what?
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:29:47Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "more completely than a :bike:
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:30:22Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "That was the intent. With some list feedback that they'd prefer we not say \"registrants\", though the start of the draft explained why we did. But personally I'm fine with changing it.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:30:42Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "More completely than the current situation where DS management in particular is challenging.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:31:04Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "But it's not just that, it's also the set of nameservers f.ex.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:31:31Z"}, {"author": "Warren Kumari", "text": "The last one seems dangerous...
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:32:07Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "it does indeed seem dangerous
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:32:45Z"}, {"author": "Stephen Farrell", "text": "add a \"MUST NOT be dangerous\" req to the 1st draft?
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:33:11Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "It was a feature of the DELEG RR draft that had a lot of support, being able to say \"the servers that handle this are definite at this SVCB record\". \"seems dangerous\" and \"is meaningfully more dangerous than the current situation\" would need more development to support.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:34:45Z"}, {"author": "Tommy Jensen", "text": "No good deed goes unpunished
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:36:10Z"}, {"author": "Warren Kumari", "text": ":-)
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:36:27Z"}, {"author": "Shane Kerr", "text": "I was thinking the same thing @Tommy!
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:36:30Z"}, {"author": "Roy Arends", "text": "This aliasing set of slides still did not mention DS aliasing. It was about servers.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:37:02Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin Schwartz", "text": "David Lawrence said:
\n\n\nIt was a feature of the DELEG RR draft that had a lot of support, being able to say \"the servers that handle this are definite at this SVCB record\". \"seems dangerous\" and \"is meaningfully more dangerous than the current situation\" would need more development to support.
\n
I don't see any ability in the DELEG RR proposal to have the nameserver tell the parent the list of zones for which the nameserver is authoritative.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:37:16Z"}, {"author": "Rob Austein", "text": "I still don't know what this group means by \"aliasing\" :)
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:37:28Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "That's not what I said.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:37:30Z"}, {"author": "Benjamin Schwartz", "text": "David Lawrence said:
\n\n\nThat's not what I said.
\n
I know, but I think that's what this thread is about, so we might be talking past each other.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:38:14Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "no need for DoH if DoQ is allowed; not DoT
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:38:27Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "DoH gives you fixes to head-of-line-blocking that DoT doesn't offer
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:38:42Z"}, {"author": "Ted Hardie", "text": "Agree with DKG
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:38:45Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "Was thinking the same thing re DoQ / DoH
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:39:04Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "i think Paul agrees and he just mis-spoke
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:39:32Z"}, {"author": "Warren Kumari", "text": "I thnk that DoH is useful because it's harder (I think!) for someone to detect that you are using it ... I tihnk...
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:42:08Z"}, {"author": "Tim Wicinski", "text": "Have we've seen DoQ deployed out in the wild? Actually curious
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:42:15Z"}, {"author": "Warren Kumari", "text": "But I suspect that that is down in the weeds / for later...
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:42:26Z"}, {"author": "Erik Nygren", "text": "This is for recursive to authority so perhaps less needed?
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:42:40Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "DoQ RFC is 3 months old
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:43:02Z"}, {"author": "Erik Nygren", "text": "I'm fine leaving out DoH. If a \"QUIC-on-Streams\" gets defined then having a version of DoQ using it (DoQT) might be a good future option instead of DoT.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:43:52Z"}, {"author": "Tim Wicinski", "text": "I am okay leaving out DoH I just hope we see the industry deploys DoQ with a similar speed.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:44:41Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "one day i'll get around to writing up my \"QUIC is just IPSec redone, but with pragmatism\" provocation paper.
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:46:00Z"}, {"author": "Allison Mankin", "text": "Tim Wicinski, DoQ was deployed in production by AdGuard at least
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:50:42Z"}, {"author": "Paul Hoffman", "text": "Looking forward to your paper, @dkg
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:51:12Z"}, {"author": "Jim Reid", "text": "Which Jim are you agreeing with Rick? :-)
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:55:09Z"}, {"author": "Tommy Jensen", "text": "+1 Jim (Reid), I was worried I has misquoted you for a sec
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:55:34Z"}, {"author": "Allison Mankin", "text": "https://dnsprivacy.org/implementation_status
", "time": "2024-07-22T20:57:59Z"}, {"author": "Tim Wicinski", "text": "Thanks Allison ! I was told Akamai has it deployed but have not seen something to test
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:04:22Z"}, {"author": "Jim Reid", "text": "Is Paul Vixie morphing into Jon Postel?
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:08:37Z"}, {"author": "Evan Hunt", "text": "aren't we all?
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:09:40Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "Here\u2019s the link that was just mentioned - https://419.consulting/encrypted-dns/f/deleg-the-hairy-dns-camel
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:09:46Z"}, {"author": "Rob Austein", "text": "How many decades do you want this to take to deploy? :)
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:11:13Z"}, {"author": "Erik Nygren", "text": "+1 to Tale (about preference to DELEG on the parent)
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:11:36Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "the beauty of multiple decades is that it will be someone else's problem at that point
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:11:41Z"}, {"author": "Rob Austein", "text": ":)
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:11:50Z"}, {"author": "Evan Hunt", "text": "+1 to Jim Reid. I was entirely prepared not to like this, and instead I'm convinced.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:13:53Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "I'm not. :). I still don't like the extra lookups in the parent or the additional name mutation to get it.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:14:20Z"}, {"author": "Stephen Farrell", "text": "Willem has also convinced me fwiw (which isn't much)
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:14:26Z"}, {"author": "Rob Austein", "text": "I think this is the incrementally deployable path. Changing zone cut semantics is a very big deal.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:15:19Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "And I'm not really convinced it is addressing a meaningful deployment issue more than a philosophical \"we should have put meta delegation information separately\"
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:15:21Z"}, {"author": "Jim Reid", "text": "I wasn't at the mike Evan! Glad you agree with me anyway. Whatever I was we agree on.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:15:40Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "GTLDs supporting DELEG is still a big deployment issue either way.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:16:49Z"}, {"author": "Evan Hunt", "text": "oh, sorry - Joe, not Jim
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:16:58Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "(... which appears to be where Roy is going right now.)
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:17:03Z"}, {"author": "Shane Kerr", "text": "I think Willem is leaning on the resolver caching information as if that made extra queries unnecessary.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:18:28Z"}, {"author": "Rob Austein", "text": "Remember the DO bit? People get confused by what they think it means, but the real definition is \"this resolver promises not to explode just because you sent it DNSSEC records in a response\". That a bit with those semantics was necessary should tell you something.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:18:51Z"}, {"author": "Jim Reid", "text": "And relying on auth servers doing more processing.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:19:00Z"}, {"author": "Shane Kerr", "text": "But Mark, how does the resolver know if a zone is signed or not if it hasn't already queried the parent yet?
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:26:52Z"}, {"author": "Tommy Jensen", "text": "I thought I was safe from IPv6 adoption talk here :(
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:29:39Z"}, {"author": "Shane Kerr", "text": "DNS Flag day 2030!!!
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:30:00Z"}, {"author": "Shane Kerr", "text": "All resolvers turn off NS support!
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:30:12Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "^You hit 3 when I think you meant 5?!
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:30:55Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "He's right, and we're heading in that direction for HTTP (some browsers query port 443 before port 80, so HTTP is now slower than HTTPS)
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:32:31Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "it's a good strategy if you can make it work.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:32:43Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Sullivan", "text": "Totally agree that it\u2019s possible to do both. I just don\u2019t want the WG\u2019s stance to be head in the sand.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:33:00Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Sullivan", "text": "(Re Joe\u2019s mic comment)
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:33:15Z"}, {"author": "Shane Kerr", "text": "Adding costs to non-adopters aligns the cost/benefits in the direction of adopting newer/better technology. I like it.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:33:22Z"}, {"author": "David Lawrence", "text": "If we do it right, I think there will be a lot of incentive for organic growth even for just the initial set of use cases.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:33:47Z"}, {"author": "Matthew Pounsett", "text": "Yeah, I think there's a way for us to have a story about deployment that includes both incremental deployment of the new thing as well as incremental deprecation of the old thing without requiring a flag day. Making the new thing the preferred method at some point (the first query) is one reasonable path toward that.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:33:49Z"}, {"author": "Rob Austein", "text": "DNS subtyping rides again
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:38:58Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "the other draft Paul Wouters referred to is https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pwouters-ds-uplifting/
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:39:26Z"}, {"author": "Tommy Jensen", "text": "thanks DKG!
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:39:59Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "it does seem to be easier for deployment for parental records than any of the other proposals i've seen (it's just aesthetically unclean)
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:41:07Z"}, {"author": "Rob Austein", "text": "If we were really interested in clean, RRSIG would have been part of extended RR for each RR type. We put up with the crazy RRSIG semantics because we cared about backwards compatibility.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:42:16Z"}, {"author": "Daniel Gillmor", "text": "oh, i'm under no illusions that the DNS is in any way \"clean\"
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:42:55Z"}, {"author": "Evan Hunt", "text": "just for old times sake: \"hummm\"
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:43:01Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Sullivan", "text": "The only time dns and clean should appear in the same
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:43:33Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Sullivan", "text": "Sentence is when there is a \u201cnot\u201d
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:43:49Z"}, {"author": "Lars-Johan Liman", "text": "@Andrew: LOL! :-)
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:44:13Z"}, {"author": "Warren Kumari", "text": "That would be awesome...
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:47:15Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "An interim meeting might help to focus minds on \u201ccompletion\u201d of the req doc
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:47:52Z"}, {"author": "Jim Reid", "text": "I'd prefer mailing list discussion to github
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:48:38Z"}, {"author": "Tommy Jensen", "text": "@Jim but I can't use emoji reacts to emails
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:49:20Z"}, {"author": "Brian Haberman", "text": "GitHub issues will be reflected to the mailing list for discussions.
", "time": "2024-07-22T21:50:03Z"}]