[{"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

Is it me or is the room sound a little low?

", "time": "2024-07-24T16:32:11Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

It's OK for me.

", "time": "2024-07-24T16:32:22Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

Fair enough, it must be me

", "time": "2024-07-24T16:32:35Z"}, {"author": "Arnaud Taddei", "text": "

https://www.itu.int/hub/2024/05/itu-and-linux-foundation-join-forces-to-create-openwallet-forum/

", "time": "2024-07-24T16:58:01Z"}, {"author": "Shigeya Suzuki", "text": "

the Credentials Community group is at W3C.
\nThe method registry is at GitHub, and there are some requirement to register, but it is basically first-come, first served.

", "time": "2024-07-24T16:58:10Z"}, {"author": "Shigeya Suzuki", "text": "

https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/

", "time": "2024-07-24T16:58:29Z"}, {"author": "Shigeya Suzuki", "text": "

https://w3c.github.io/did-spec-registries/

", "time": "2024-07-24T16:58:59Z"}, {"author": "Chad Kohalyk", "text": "

British Columbia has their own wallet which you can download from the app stores and also inspect here: https://github.com/bcgov/bc-wallet-mobile

", "time": "2024-07-24T16:59:50Z"}, {"author": "Shigeya Suzuki", "text": "

Note: As I remember correctly, someone mentioned use of DANCE in this meeting, but I can't find when up to now...

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:10:09Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

Opportunistic Encryption using the Internet Key Exchange (RFC 4322) - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc4322/

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:11:44Z"}, {"author": "Chad Kohalyk", "text": "

For reference:

\n

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8890

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:27:52Z"}, {"author": "Arnaud Taddei", "text": "

Agree with Vittorio it is more edge to edge than end to end

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:30:16Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

Yes, the point is more about preserving the 'principles' of the principle - which as you mention is about user control/choice

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:30:55Z"}, {"author": "Arnaud Taddei", "text": "

ahh! got it, thank you Sheetal

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:31:18Z"}, {"author": "Arnaud Taddei", "text": "

Well it is quite of an uphill battle now, wondering if this is not a \"lost world\"

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:31:42Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

We don't think its a lost world, no!

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:33:08Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

Will share the resource you mentioned here in a second.

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:33:19Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

To expand on my comment on being an Internet fragmentation sceptic: when, for example, the US has a deeply flawed regulatory approach (eg no federal privacy legislation, issues with Section 230 etc), expecting everything to be available everywhere to everyone despite the harms caused because fragmentation is bad seems to me to be the wrong answer.

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:33:20Z"}, {"author": "Arnaud Taddei", "text": "

Glad I teased you a bit Sheetal! The workshop you organised was a great experience

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:34:19Z"}, {"author": "Chad Kohalyk", "text": "

What was the name of that workshop? I would like to look it up

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:34:50Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

Arnaud Taddei said:

\n
\n

Agree with Vittorio it is more edge to edge than end to end

\n
\n

regarding the E2E principle: there was a talk by Dave Reed (one of the coauthors of the E2E paper\" at Usenix security 2010, which offers a clarification: \u201cE2EA are principles relating to function placement, not function choice\u201d. for example it does not define where the ends should be (that's more of an architecture question)

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:35:02Z"}, {"author": "Arnaud Taddei", "text": "

Ah yeah good point Lixia

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:35:32Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity10/end-end-arguments-internet-and-beyond

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:35:47Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

Here is the resource as promised: https://www.gp-digital.org/publication/regional-roundtable-briefing-internet-fragmentation-and-human-rights-in-europe/

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:36:46Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

Thanks!

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:36:57Z"}, {"author": "Tom Hill", "text": "

Thanks Sheetal. Good talk.

", "time": "2024-07-24T17:39:13Z"}, {"author": "bengo", "text": "

I wish a larger and more diverse pool of people was weighing in on these questions. Eg I wish DINRG would let the previous presenters weigh in.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:07:28Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

Forgot to say: in the panel slides, we have collected a list of topics we discussed at previous DINRG meetings.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:07:30Z"}, {"author": "Rahul Gupta", "text": "

The first two panelist disregard that internet itself came about from the need to decentralize telephony to create resilience over market efficiency. The government has immense possibilities to address this again like it did from the internet.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:13:45Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

+1 Rahul

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:14:06Z"}, {"author": "Mark McFadden", "text": "

I would note that we are already halfway through the allocated time for the panel, but we are only on the first set of topics. With the queue closed there isn\u2019t going to be much opportunity for a discussion.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:14:17Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

I hope we can make it to the next question and then open the queue again...

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:14:42Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

Happy to use the chat if that is better for preserving time.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:15:01Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

Let's spend a little more time on topic #1...

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:15:23Z"}, {"author": "Rahul Gupta", "text": "

+1 Lixia. Human spirit continually challanges the status quo and that's a great source of progress.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:15:37Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

This is an interesting format but constrained by the available time. Perhaps consider repeating this in Dublin but having a second DINRG session dedicated to a panel.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:23:41Z"}, {"author": "Mark McFadden", "text": "

3.a: \u201cWhat should DINRG focus on?\u201d 1] better outreach beyond the research group so that other parts of the IETF are aware of the work going on in DNIRG; 2] better descriptions of the technical effects of centralization; 3] opportunities to showcase alternatives to centralized applications, data and infrastructure.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:24:37Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

Thanks, yes, we are considering this, maybe also for the DIN CoNEXT Workshop in December with even more time...

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:24:38Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "", "time": "2024-07-24T18:24:49Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

@Mark - on your outreach point, agree but I\u2019d urge even more ambition to ideally consider other stakeholder groups too. Or maybe have a DINRG session (side meeting?) at the IGF meeting in December?

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:27:10Z"}, {"author": "Mark McFadden", "text": "

For DINRG: somehow re-energizing the mailing list to that there is a broader set of voices in the discussion and more engagement. CoNEXT is great, but there needs to be an effective home for the ongoing conversation that is open to policy makes, economists, end-users, as well as the usual stakeholders in the IETF.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:27:24Z"}, {"author": "Mark McFadden", "text": "

@Andrew: agree with your comment about ambition, but I wonder how successful we will be in that ambition in the context of the IRTF. (?)

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:28:47Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

Also, would say that power doesn't just like power, power doesn't relinquish power (or easily). But principles and values have material value/impact and what history shows is that people (with power - which includes those in this room) who push for those principles and values and expose contradictions (e.g at IETF, end user interests being protected but actually feeding centralisation and the risks there in the medium-longer term), making them visible can and does have an impact. This is particularly important and possible here because the issue is complex and knotty but there are agreed values and principles (decentralisation, end user choice/agency) and they are being undermined - but there are metrics, measurement, analysis to help make that visible. It's not an easy solution that comes from one place because the problem is complicated but there is power in making what is invisible, visible and building a community to advance the principles you believe in.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:29:12Z"}, {"author": "Chad Kohalyk", "text": "

(This is my first IETF, so very basic question, apologies!) I came to the IETF from the IGF. What other forae does the IETF engage with in order to engage with the MARKET and REGULATORS, and other STAKEHOLDERS?

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:29:26Z"}, {"author": "Chad Kohalyk", "text": "

(ie does IETF hold any observer status on councils around the world? Or do such observers liase here?)

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:30:07Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

@Chad RFC8890 suggests multi-stakeholder engagement for items that have dimensions beyond technology. But I\u2019m not aware of that happening in a meaningful way yet.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:30:45Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

There was an IETF panel discussion at the lastIGF in Kyoto though.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:31:16Z"}, {"author": "Chad Kohalyk", "text": "

Andrew Campling said:

\n
\n

There was an IETF panel discussion at the lastIGF in Kyoto though.

\n
\n

I was there\u2026 and now I am here :wink:

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:31:41Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

Excellent, we need more of that!

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:32:11Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

Hi Chad, welcome to DINRG. Technically, we are in the Internet Research Task Force (IRTF), not the IETF. IRTF groups like this one are really about longer-term research efforts, and they are very much community-driven. Of course, it's worthwhile asking which community should get engaged more...

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:32:17Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

+1 to more liaison - happy to help with the 'internet governance spaces' in multilateral forums like the UN, especially because they are having discussions that could impact standards development spaces like ietf!

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:32:54Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

But also banning Facebook is not end user friendly

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:34:50Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

Sadly I think we\u2019re already over time

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:35:39Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

I do nod disagree with Geoff (Huston) regarding (how/whether to deal with) established market/dominant players.
\nit is a different/separate topic on what one could/should do, if the status quo is not what one want to see for next 20 years down the road.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:35:51Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

or rather there are impacts on people's rights that would need to be considered - I get that you were not being serious but still...The point is that end users needs and rights are not centred much in these discussions (more politicised/corporate)

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:36:00Z"}, {"author": "Dirk Kutscher", "text": "

Yes, we have to wrap up soon. Please share your thoughts on the mailing list as well!

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:36:22Z"}, {"author": "bengo", "text": "

This panel is fristrating. Are there any Americans on it? They are bashing USA policy on labor and totally omitting history of British, French etc profit from the space trade and colonialism\u2026

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:36:29Z"}, {"author": "bengo", "text": "

Slave trade *

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:36:40Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

@Sheetal Arguably banning [insert favorite social medial platform] may be in the long term interests of users, but they might not like the short-term pain

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:37:35Z"}, {"author": "Rahul Gupta", "text": "

We need more research both for history and future. The situation today cannot be an excuse of not doing the work we as a community need to.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:41:27Z"}, {"author": "Rahul Gupta", "text": "

@sheetal @andrew There is the option to go for vertical business separation to address Facebook situation. Separate data from ui

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:43:57Z"}, {"author": "Rahul Gupta", "text": "

It's Engelbart's law!

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:44:12Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

+1 - yes breaking up is key

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:44:26Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

@Dino you're assuming a particular economic system but not value extractive systems work that like. Also, value extractive systems are human-made, so they can be changed.

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:45:30Z"}, {"author": "Sheetal Kumar", "text": "

*not all

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:45:37Z"}, {"author": "Andrew Campling", "text": "

So the answer to the exam question is that we need more economists, regulators and Elon to come next time!

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:46:55Z"}, {"author": "Lixia Zhang", "text": "

thanks to all for the great discussion!

", "time": "2024-07-24T18:48:04Z"}]