SUSTAIN RG Agenda -- IETF 123 (Madrid and Online)

Datatracker: https://datatracker.ietf.org/rg/sustain/about/
ICS: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/session/34419.ics

SUSTAIN RG session: THURSDAY, 24 July, 2025 -- Session IV

When: 17:00 - 19:00 CEST (15:00 - 17:00 UTC)
Room: Tapices -- https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/floor-plan

Co-chairs: Ali Rezaki (ali.rezaki@nokia.com), Eve Schooler
(eve.schooler@gmail.com), Michael Welzl (michawe@ifi.uio.no)

Materials: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/session/sustain
Note taking: https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-123-sustain
Remote participation:
https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/ietf123/?session=34419
Local onsite tool:
https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/onsite123/?session=34419
Chat: https://zulip.ietf.org/#narrow/stream/sustain
Recording: https://www.meetecho.com/ietf123/recordings#SUSTAIN
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMxu7mT5nZA

REMINDER to Presenters: the duration times include Q&A
Note takers: Marie-José Montpetit

Slot) Start | Duration | Information

1) 17:00 | 5 min | Title: Co-Chair Intro

Presenters: Ali Rezaki (Nokia), Eve Schooler (U Oxford), & Michael Welzl
(U Oslo)
Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-irtf-sustain/
Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/materials/slides-123-sustain-chair-slides-for-sustain-rg-ietf-123-02

Plan ahead: Sustain Workshop in Passau planned for 16-17 July 2026.

2) 17:05 | 20 min | Title: Unlocking Flexibility Potentials of Data Centers and Multi-Use Battery Storages

Presenter: Hermann de Meer (U Passau)
Contributors: Michael Lechl and Alexander Kilian (U Passau)
Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/materials/slides-123-sustain-unlocking-flexibility-potentials-of-data-centers-and-multi-use-battery-storages-02

Abstract:

Related work:

Question: (Dirk Kutscher) - Would it be useful to create more
flexibility in the pricing?
Answer: Prices could be an incentive but it could also be detrimental.
It depends a bit because the prices for the electricity are set globally
I'm talking about congestion, it's a local thing. The buy/sell locally
can lead to congestion. Need to take the grid into account. Mitigate
between price vs congestion.
Question:(Jesús A. Omaña Iglesias): Are there negative sides? Need more
batteries in certain places?
Answer: Hopefully not - using local batteries saves on transport; the
fees dominate the prices; carbon is reduced by the flexibility.
Question (John Scudder): Using data centers in the turbines - assuming
that the loads are dispatcheable?
Answer: There is no specific assumption on the nature of the load just
localisation and matching the supply and demand.

3) 17:25 | 20 min | Title: Carbon-aware Networking: Challenges and Opportunities

Presenter: Noa Zilberman (U Oxford)
Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/materials/slides-123-sustain-carbon-aware-networking-challenges-and-opportunities-01

Abstract:

Related work:

Question: (Ali Rezaki) Related to Hermann: if we focus on local
optimizations sometimes we might get it wrong in the end-to-end or
systems view. Have you come across such challenges and how would you see
the challenges in local vs systems level decisions?
Answer: I discussed with Hermann; network traffic is very much periodic
so you can predict what would be the amount of traffic at certain times
of day and what will be the demand; we can work together with energy
providers. Moreover, carbon intensity is a property of the grid. Many of
the discussed challenges (like how to account for static emissions) are
unrelated to the grid.

4) 17:45 | 20 min | Title: Making Infrastructural Waves: Subsea Cables and the Socio-environmental Ramifications of Invisible Digital Growth

Presenter: Hunter Vaughan (Emerson College)
Paper: Report on Best Practices in Subsea Telecommunications
Sustainability

Publications Archive: Sustainable Subsea Networks
Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/materials/slides-123-sustain-hunter-vaughan-making-waves-subsea-cables-and-the-socio-environmental-ramifications-of-invisible-digital-growth-01

Abstract:

Question: (Eve Schooler) I have been fascinated for quite a while with
the subsea cable community and how it dovetails into the work on media
and film. What is the interaction of Sustain with an organization like
the Internet Society and the Internet Society Foundation for grants? Can
you tell us about how the subsea cable community catalyzed all the
stakeholders? How might we assemble the statkeholders - here at the IRTF
- as wired/core networking technology people?
Answer: The Internet Society Foundation were your first cohort in 2021
to 2022. They launched a greening the internet funding grant scheme.
Nicole Starosielski wrote a book called the Undersea Network that rocked
the world of media film and media studies with a large understanding of
the infrastructures. It improved the relationship with the TV industry
and it also helped with the ICT infrastructure. There was also work with
Ireland that included outreach. ICT industries are welcoming and would
like to be better environmentally.

5) 18:05 | 15 min | Title: Assessment, Attribution, Reporting and Reduction: Quick Survey of Proposed Internet Research Topics

Presenter: Jan Lindblad (All for Eco AB)
Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/materials/slides-123-sustain-jan-lindblad-assessment-attribution-reporting-and-reduction-quick-survey-of-proposed-internet-research-topics-01

Abstract:

Comment (in chat): (Carlos Bernardos) The paper mentioned: "Submission
received: 31 May 2018 / Revised: 11 July 2018 / Accepted: 11 July 2018 /
Published: 17 July 2018"
I find this a bit odd, without reading the paper, my first reaction
would be to take a careful look at it.
Comment (in the chat): (Poonam Yadav) Would be certainly interested in
organising a session in carbon accounting conference.
Comment in the chat (Jan Lindblad): @poonam, great to hear. Please
connect with me at jan.lindblad@for.eco or on LinkedIn
Comment in the chat (Marisol Palmero): @poonam I will also be interested
to be part of the discussion, marisol.ietf@gmail.com
Comment in the chat (Ali Rezaki): Poonam, please copy sustain@irtf.org
in your e-mail so colleagues who are not here could be aware. Many
thanks.
Question: (Dave Oran) Asking the inverse question: how much power would
be saved if a customer would leave?
Answer: I think it's quite strongly related to question number two I
proposed there, but yes, it's perhaps a different perspective.
Question: (Marisol Palmero) In the GHE: from the engineering perspective
the CO2 is often double booked.
Answer: Its the protocol we have and that is being followed by the
companies.
Question: (Adrian Gallego) How can this create more strategy in the
future?
Answer: We have to get started with defining the theoretical foundations
and maybe policy languages.

6) 18:20 | 15 min | Title: An Evaluation of RAN Sustainability Strategies in Production Networks

Presenter: Jesus Alberto Omaña Iglesias (Telefonica)
Contributors: Andra Lutu (Telefonica)
Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/materials/slides-123-sustain-an-evaluation-of-ran-sustainability-strategies-in-production-networks-01

Abstract:

Related Work:

Question: (Eve Schooler) How about linking to carbon awareness or carbon
intensity?
Answer: We are trying to do that but it is different. We are trying to
to do that but considering the carbon awareness but i mean in general
the different between being energy efficient and carbon aware is with
energy efficient, you'll directly affect cost. So far there are no
incentives, at least monetary to be carbon aware. While the UK is a
particular case north vs. south with different levels vs. centralized
approaches like in Spain you could optimize much more carbon in certain
regions than others.
Question: (Ali Rezaki) Any plan to include other contributors?
Answer: We want to, and from a technology perspective it's possible but
not easy. And we are looking at other models to encourage this.

7) 18:35 | 10 min | Title: Towards a Free Finer-grain Carbon Map

Presenter: Wen Cai (U Oslo)
Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/materials/slides-123-sustain-wen-cai-towards-a-free-finer-grain-carbon-map-01

Abstract

Question: (Jan Lindblad) Do we need to improve on the contracts, that
are not based solely on averages, and incentives that are are key.
Answer: Yes we need to include inputs from different providers to the
consumer; we should discuss off line.
Question: (Poonam Yadav) Do you have the final architecture and
topology?
Answer: Question moved to email with the mailing list to be included.

8) 18:45 | 10 min | Title: Aggregation Trace Option for In-situ Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (IOAM)

Presenter: Alex Clemm
Paper: Towards Sustainable Networking: Unveiling Energy Efficiency
Through Hop and Path Efficiency Indicators in Computer Networks

Internet-Draft: draft-cxx-ippm-ioamaggr-03
Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/materials/slides-123-sustain-alex-clemm-green-path-metrics-01

Abstract:

Question: (Eve Schooler) I have been thinking for a long time that
path-related metrics of aggregated values would be very useful and so I
want to understand if it is your intent to make your aggregation option
extensible?
Answer: Yes the intent is to make it basically extensible in multiple
ways: in terms of the actual aggregation function that is being used as
well as for the data items that are being referenced.
Comment: (Ike Kunze) Interested in collaborating and will reach out.

9) 18:55 | 5 min | Title: Sustainable Network Architecture

Presenter: Jari Arkko (Ericsson)
Internet-Draft: draft-various-eimpact-arch-considerations-01
Slides:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/123/materials/slides-123-sustain-update-on-network-architecture-considerations-for-sustainability-03

Abstract:

Question: (Michel Welzl) What is the status of the draft?
Answer(Suresh Krishnan) We plan to work on it.

19:00 END