WIMSE Working Group Meeting: 22 July 2025 - IETF 123

Welcome and Chair Update (5 mins) - Chairs

Notetakes: Joe Salowey, Dmitry Izumskiy

Justin: now at MongoDB

Workload to workload draft update (20 minutes) - (authors)

Draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-wimse-s2s-protocol/
Yaron and Brian Presenting for the authors
Yaron: Making significant progress
Yaron: Please share information about implementation

Yaron: examples of protocol documents with good security analysis
Justin: think of it as defining what security properties this provides
instead of a formal analysis. ie. does this provide integrity,
confidentitiality, etc.
Yaron: Different properties for different proper
Pieter: reach out to the people who did the FAPI analysis
Usama: security properites are more concrete goals (in formal analysis).
goals are high level and not as formal as properties. Draft should lay
out the security goals.
Yaron: we are focusing on security goals

Yaron: proposes wimse URI scheme
Yaroslav: scheme should have meaning, wimse may be to general to be
meaningful.
Yaron: it just means "I'm going to use it in wimse"
Yaroslav: wimse seems like a placeholder
Yaron: I think people will use the Wimse scheme in real deployments
Pieter: This may be part of an identity draft

Brian talks about multiple oth tokens - replace single value wih json
object containing the multiple hashes
Thibault (cloudFlare) - is this to replace HTTPSignatures?
Brian: no this is not to replace HTTP signatures, want to make in simple
and different
Justin: do refer to http headers, instead have a token labe a value
Brian: we do this for tokens we know, but for unknown we use headers
Justin: don't do it
Yaroslav: related to web bot auth

Lets get to WGLC by Montreal

Workload Identity Practices draft update (10 minutes) - Arndt

Draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-wimse-workload-identity-practices/

Arndt presenting

Justin: who has read the draft? ~7 have raised hands, a few people
offered to review
Justin: start WGLC soon

Architecture draft update (10 minutes) - (authors)

Draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-wimse-arch/

Joe Presents
Arndt: differentiate between identity as logical concept and identity as
a specific instance
Yaroslav:
Usama: What about attestation
Joe: Just general high level
Henk: maybe better to leave it out for now
Actions

WIMSE and Agentic AI (20 minutes) - Yaron

Usama: what is an agent?
Yaron: ill defined. Maybe If it meets 73% of the "properties" of an
agent then it is an agent

Yaron: Agents look like workloads, but WIMSE does not ccover all of the
things now (identity, attestation, authorization)

Yaroslav: Are there any Agentic AI practitioners who want to
participate? Could we get participant from this community

Yaron: I agree in principal.

Arndt: I don't think WIMSE will be able to solve all of them, we should
try to help the industry. Draft in OAUTH using SPIFFE to talk to
authoizaiton server.

Usama: Did you list all the improtant things for agent?

Yaron: there are more things, but I listed the areas we are missing in
WIMSE

Thibault: Focus on micro-agent what do we focus on in this working group

Yaron: Some of htis is more Appropriate for OAUTH

Thibaut: may identity practices acan expand upon this

Yogesh: each agent is a workload, same principles

Yaron: idagree

Gene: Need to be different. MCP does not have fundamental security.
causes interop problems

Andrew: May not be able to solve all of these problems. We definitly
should attack identity and attestation

Dmitry: Workload identity is fundamental.

Henk (chat): Mark's presentation will start to highlight why
"Attestation" will become as confusing as always everywhere, if not
dealt with

WIMSE identifier (10 minutes) - Yaroslav, Joe, and Hannes

Draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rosomakho-wimse-identifier/

Kathleen: Have you look at the glue document in spice. Glue is trying to
provide a unique identifier
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spice-glue-id/
Yaroslav: we have not looked at it yet

Yaron: is splitting it out the right approach

Thibault: I think this would be valuable. Scope to workload.

Arndt: Taking the time into account I’m writing in chat: I support
working on it but it should be fast because other documents rely on it
Flemming Andreasen: Agree with Arndt
Andrew McCormick expressed interest as well

Credential Exchange (10 minutes) - Arndt

Draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-schwenkschuster-wimse-credential-exchange/

Definition of protocol vs best practices, patterns and use cases.
Purpose of document - Do we need to start?

There is a bi-weekly credential exchange call

Joe: I think this is needed, have not read the draft yet
Dmitry: (didn't hear all of it but ti think ti would be support of)
Andrew: +1
Deans Saxe supports this work in chat
Flemming Andreason supports work in chat

Yaron: draft is high level why not specific
Arndt: its hard to cover all the use cases with one mechanism
Justin: this is a starting point for disucssion

Accessing static secrets in Multi Service Environments (10 min) - Andrew McCormick and Arndt

Yaron: thought this was a solved problem. maybe look at Oauth NHI
Joe: isn't is S2s in WIMSE and then other stuff is out of scope?
Andrew: pretty much
Yaroslav: isn't it Spice?
Orie (AD): it is connected to S2S piece doesn't cleanly fit in the
charter
Pieter: continue to explore then we can discuss charter and relation to
charter
Justin: we are encouraged to discuss this on the list

WIMSE Headless JWT Authentication and Authorization (10 minutes) - Marcel

Draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-levy-wimse-headless-jwt-authentication/

Marcel: Are people interested.
Joe: i think ti could be useful to avoid sharp edges. Maybe this fits
with workload practices
Arndt: Different security practices not document. Single key vs global
key.
Brian: overlap with a lot of existing work
Marcel: important point will followup

WIMSE impact on Data residency requirements for handling sensitive data (5 minutes) - Ramki

Draft:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lkspa-wimse-verifiable-geo-fence/

Mark: Start with Architecture. Separate workload form host plaform and
then combine them

Confidential Compute and WIMSE (5 minutes) - Mark

Potetnial conflict of WIMSE and confidential compute semantic.

Usama: RA is a prerequiste to CC
Henk (chat): In some scenarios, but not all certainly
Josef - happy to work on architecture to cover additional deployment
models
Justin - Reminder that confidential compute consortium is a seperate
entity and not part of the IETF, processes, rules and IP protections is
different from that of the IETF. Work in IETF is independant from
Confidential Compute Consortium.

Any other business (5 minutes) - Chairs

Draft: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ccc-wimse-twi-extensions/