:wave:
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:30:06.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": ":wave:
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:31:02.000Z"}, {"author": "Lucas Prabel", "text": ":wave:
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:31:14.000Z"}, {"author": "Stavros Kousidis", "text": ":wave:
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:31:27.000Z"}, {"author": "Ren\u00e9 L\u00e9veill\u00e9", "text": ":wave:
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:32:37.000Z"}, {"author": "Simone Onofri", "text": ":wave:
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:34:47.000Z"}, {"author": "Tony Li", "text": ":wave:
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:34:52.000Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": ":ocean:
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:36:09.000Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hammell", "text": "Regarding PQ DNSSEC, there was a related I-D posted on DataTracker relatively recently: draft-sheth-pqc-dnssec-strategy (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sheth-pqc-dnssec-strategy/)
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:41:15.000Z"}, {"author": "Matthew Campagna", "text": "cant hear me
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:54:09.000Z"}, {"author": "Matthew Campagna", "text": "ill try and change audio input
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:54:36.000Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "sometimes it is browser permissions
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:54:48.000Z"}, {"author": "Matthew Campagna", "text": "will rejoin
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:55:08.000Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "ok
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:55:13.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": "meetecho can be finicky
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:55:14.000Z"}, {"author": "Britta Hale", "text": "It is probably the post quantum authenticity on the connection that is causing throughput failure /s
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:55:29.000Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "lol
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:55:38.000Z"}, {"author": "Matthew Campagna", "text": "audio is not working - sorry.
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:56:19.000Z"}, {"author": "Matthew Campagna", "text": "maybe move forward in the agenda and I'll try again
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:56:35.000Z"}, {"author": "Britta Hale", "text": "You could dial-in on your phone as secondary audio
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:56:43.000Z"}, {"author": "Matthew Campagna", "text": "ill rejoing using firefox
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:56:51.000Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "IS continuity really more important than dead air time for the whole wg ?
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:57:38.000Z"}, {"author": "Matthew Campagna", "text": "rejoining via firefox
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:58:03.000Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "so glad we have these custom conferencing tools
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:58:23.000Z"}, {"author": "Kris Kwiatkowski", "text": "Glad we have Firefox
", "time": "2025-11-06T19:59:16.000Z"}, {"author": "Stephen Farrell", "text": "what's a hidden access policy?
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:06:19.000Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "policy-hidding ABE: https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/753.pdf, for example
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:07:03.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "I'm struggling a bit to understand what the take-home of this presentation is
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:07:21.000Z"}, {"author": "Stephen Farrell", "text": "thanks Sofia
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:07:50.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": "ETSI is doing PQ thingies
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:08:02.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": "I think
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:08:06.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Deirdre Connolly said:
\n\n\nETSI is doing PQ thingies
\n
Well yes.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:08:09.000Z"}, {"author": "Paul Hoffman", "text": "What Deirdre said
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:08:13.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Paul Hoffman said:
\n\n\nWhat Deirdre said
\n
well this is quite a long talk for that message
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:08:27.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": ":grinning:
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:08:31.000Z"}, {"author": "Stephen Farrell", "text": "are they doing a PQ TETRA?
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:08:37.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Is the conclusion that we don't need to do any of this work here because we could just point to these specs? Because that would be good to know
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:08:48.000Z"}, {"author": "Paul Hoffman", "text": "That is obviously not the conclusion
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:09:07.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": "i hate that ETSI portal
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:09:23.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Paul Hoffman said:
\n\n\nThat is obviously not the conclusion
\n
Well, it's not obvious to me. What is the conclusion then?
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:09:24.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "TETRA's symmetric isn't it?
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:09:26.000Z"}, {"author": "Paul Hoffman", "text": "See above
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:09:33.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": "i feel like I need a separate windows XP machine just to load it
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:09:37.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Paul Hoffman said:
\n\n\nSee above
\n
The message is \"ETSI is doing PQ\". OK.....
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:09:50.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "Eric Rescorla said:
\n\n\nIs the conclusion that we don't need to do any of this work here because we could just point to these specs? Because that would be good to know
\n
No, but it's that there's work ETSI are doing or have done that overlaps with what PQUIP are doing and it's worth being aware of that e.g. Thom's HBS work referencing the ETSI paper
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:10:19.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "Or e.g. ETSI doing analysis on the impact of Grover's algorithm could inform what we do (or back up what we're already doing)
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:10:57.000Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "I think it\u2019s both interesting and valuable to understand what regional standards bodies\u2014such as ETSI and NIST, are currently doing in the PQC space. There may or may not be overlap between their efforts, but it\u2019s important to follow their trajectories and see how their work evolves. We have had presentations from NIST, but there are other bodies as ETSI
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:11:48.000Z"}, {"author": "Colin Whorlow", "text": "As said in IABOpen - ETSI is NOT a regional standards body
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:12:27.000Z"}, {"author": "Thom Wiggers", "text": "does anyone have a link to this ETSI AQSHKE
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:12:44.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Colin Whorlow said:
\n\n\nAs said in IABOpen - ETSI is NOT a regional standards body
\n
Well, as debated in IABopen at least
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:12:59.000Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "sure, thank you for your note, Colin. If there is debate on that, it might be worth asking ETSI ;)
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:13:28.000Z"}, {"author": "Paul Hoffman", "text": "I did note that ETSI seems to think that Canada is part of Europe.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:14:01.000Z"}, {"author": "Colin Whorlow", "text": "Your actual point was right though - it's good to hear from other groups
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:14:05.000Z"}, {"author": "Ted Hardie", "text": "When it is acting as an ESO, in order to create a harmonized standard for Europe, it is a regional. In other contexts, it is a voluntary standards body with no geographic scope. The EC doesn't love that it has both roles, but so it goes.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:14:26.000Z"}, {"author": "Thom Wiggers", "text": "Paul: well https://eurovisionworld.com/esc/canada-explores-participation-in-eurovision-song-contest
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:14:46.000Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "I knew eurovision was coming ahah
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:15:08.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "Thom Wiggers said:
\n\n\ndoes anyone have a link to this ETSI AQSHKE
\n
I think this is ongoing work, so you'd need to be an ETSI member to see it. It's an update to this: https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/103700_103799/103744/01.01.01_60/ts_103744v010101p.pdf
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:15:31.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "ETSI documents are public once published but not while in draft
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:16:11.000Z"}, {"author": "Thom Wiggers", "text": "Would someone please tell ETSI about TikZ :see_no_evil:
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:16:13.000Z"}, {"author": "Pascal Sch\u00e4fer", "text": "When they would use LaTex :P
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:17:20.000Z"}, {"author": "Ren\u00e9 L\u00e9veill\u00e9", "text": "maybe a dumb question, is there precedent for living documents within the IETF?
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:17:39.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "Thom Wiggers said:
\n\n\nWould someone please tell ETSI about TikZ :see_no_evil:
\n
Can you do ASCII art in TikZ?
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:18:01.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Ren\u00e9 L\u00e9veill\u00e9 said:
\n\n\nmaybe a dumb question, is there precedent for living documents within the IETF?
\n
No. There is no such thing.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:18:03.000Z"}, {"author": "Thom Wiggers", "text": "@Flo D hmm that's just unauthenticated key exchange which has way fewer interesting and weird knobs to twist than authenticated KE
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:18:19.000Z"}, {"author": "Sofia Celi", "text": "With the academic hat on, this is the only place I see active advocacy for latex ahahaha
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:18:34.000Z"}, {"author": "Thom Wiggers", "text": "I have looked at or designed like a dozen PQ AKEs now and they are extremely context-specific... Very sad that this is behind the ETSI paywall :(
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:19:32.000Z"}, {"author": "Ren\u00e9 L\u00e9veill\u00e9", "text": "Eric Rescorla said:
\n\n\nRen\u00e9 L\u00e9veill\u00e9 said:
\n\n\nmaybe a dumb question, is there precedent for living documents within the IETF?
\nNo. There is no such thing.
\n
Thanks, that's what I though. An IANA registry seems more appropriate to the goal of this document then?
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:19:40.000Z"}, {"author": "Matthew Campagna", "text": "@Thom - here is the tracking page for the AQSHEX - https://portal.etsi.org/webapp/WorkProgram/Report_WorkItem.asp?WKI_ID=74354
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:19:55.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": "what routing documents?
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:20:01.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "Fair shout Thom. I did the classic thing of not reading the source material. I was getting my info this NIST doc but didn't read it properly https://csrc.nist.gov/csrc/media/Events/2025/workshop-on-guidance-for-kems/documents/papers/etsi-qsc-paper.pdf. The AQSHKE is different to the update to that doc.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:20:07.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": "Hash truncation is independent of PQ
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:20:11.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Deirdre Connolly said:
\n\n\nHash truncation is independent of PQ
\n
Like 90% independent, right? Something something grover's algorithn
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:20:41.000Z"}, {"author": "Thom Wiggers", "text": "thanks @Matthew Campagna
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:20:48.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": "Grover's is not really-really a thing
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:20:56.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Deirdre Connolly said:
\n\n\nGrover's is not really-really a thing
\n
That was why \"90%\" and \"something something\"
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:21:10.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "That's pretty much QSC's conclusion
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:21:25.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "Thom Wiggers said:
\n\n\nI have looked at or designed like a dozen PQ AKEs now and they are extremely context-specific... Very sad that this is behind the ETSI paywall :(
\n
It looks like PQShield are an ETSI member
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:21:46.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": "Either way 'truncation' is an independent issue and usually if you are shoving a PQ key or secret through a hash, any hash, normal cryptography issues of 'am i allowed to truncate this hash this much' apply
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:22:13.000Z"}, {"author": "Thom Wiggers", "text": "hmm sounds like the head isn't talking to the arms again haha, I will check on that
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:22:19.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "https://www.etsi.org/membership <- If I'm wrong this page is lying
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:22:47.000Z"}, {"author": "Thom Wiggers", "text": "Thanks Flo, probably you are not wrong, but I need to find who to hit with a wrench for our password
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:25:06.000Z"}, {"author": "Deirdre Connolly", "text": ":bike::factory:
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:26:26.000Z"}, {"author": "David Black", "text": "On living documents - there is precedent, but it's not promising. The webrtc effort got so complex in document relationships that they used an Internet-Draft to track everything - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jennings-rtcweb-deps/ .
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:27:16.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "David Black said:
\n\n\nOn living documents - there is precedent, but it's not promising. The webrtc effort got so complex in document relationships that they used an Internet-Draft to track everything - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jennings-rtcweb-deps/ .
\n
I mean, that's not really a living document any more than any I-D is
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:27:58.000Z"}, {"author": "David Black", "text": "Obtaining cryptographic guidance from an Internet-Draft does not feel like a good move.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:28:08.000Z"}, {"author": "David Black", "text": "@ekr - it was used as a living document inside the IETF. Agree that I-D as a living document for serious guidance is not a good move.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:28:49.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "David Black said:
\n\n\n@ekr - it was used as a living document inside the IETF. Agree that I-D as a living document for serious guidance is not a good move.
\n
I'm not sure I agree it was \"used as a living document\" any more than (say) the interim drafts that we implemented TLS 1.3 or QUIC off of were
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:29:21.000Z"}, {"author": "Stephen Farrell", "text": "I don't agree with what Richard asserted happened on monday
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:29:22.000Z"}, {"author": "Cory Myers", "text": "Anecdotally: Descriptive documents like the terminology RFC have been very helpful as a normative taxonomy outside of (but drawing on) the academic literature. In terms of concrete recommendations, Thom\u2019s point about context-specificity rings true (and perhaps generalizes beyond AKEs).
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:29:32.000Z"}, {"author": "Stephen Farrell", "text": "there wasn't consensus to do it yes but there also wasn't that it shouldn't be done IMO
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:29:39.000Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "Agree, that second question wasn't even really discussed.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:30:03.000Z"}, {"author": "David Black", "text": "\"I'm not sure I agree it was \"used as a living document\" any more than (say) the interim drafts that we implemented TLS 1.3 or QUIC off of were\" As a WG chair at the time who was on the receiving end of expectations set by that document, I can assure you that it was used as a living document :blush:.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:30:41.000Z"}, {"author": "Ted Hardie", "text": "General guidance: hydrate, use sunscreen, avoid harsh light before attempting to sleep.
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:31:11.000Z"}, {"author": "Richard Barnes", "text": "Don't spit into the wind
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:34:54.000Z"}, {"author": "Rich Salz", "text": "Dont tug on superman's cape
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:35:04.000Z"}, {"author": "Flo D", "text": "To bring together two topics from today, ETSI QSC have published migration guidance https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_tr/104000_104099/104016/01.01.01_60/tr_104016v010101p.pdf
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:36:27.000Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hammell", "text": "The WG charter says:
\n\n", "time": "2025-11-06T20:38:00.000Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "The WG will document operational and design guidance which supports PQC transition.
\n
Jonathan Hammell said:
\n\n\nThe WG charter says:
\n\n\nThe WG will document operational and design guidance which supports PQC transition.
\n
\n
It has done so
", "time": "2025-11-06T20:38:29.000Z"}]