PQUIP WG IETF 124, Montréal Thursday November 6, 2025 Session III, 1430-1630 Paul Hoffman and Sofia Celi, co-chairs These minutes only cover what was said at the mic lines, not the slides themselves Materials are at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/124/session/pquip/ Hash-based Signatures: State and Backup Management, Thom Wiggers https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pquip-hbs-state/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-124-pquip-stateful-hash-based-signatures-backup-and-state-management-update/ Paul: Are you waiting on anything to finish the draft? Thom: No Paul: Maybe start WG Last Call soon to see if anything shakes out Deirdre Connolly: Trusts you on NIST's paring down on ciphersuites, supports WG Last Call Thom: More to do on this topic (see slide 4 for "scoping") Adapting Constrained Devices for Post-Quantum Cryptography, Dan Wing https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pquip-pqc-hsm-constrained/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-124-pquip-adapting-constrained-devices-for-post-quantum-cryptography-draft-ietf-pquip-pqc-hsm-constrained/ Dan: Not sure when to go to WG Last Call, depends on NIST finishing their part Thom: It is worth waiting for FN-DSA There have been drafts circulating from the Falcon authors Waiting for this is worth it Dan: Schedule was for November, and we're still in November Could be soon after they get back to work Paul: Please read and comment before WG Last Call Philippe Bergeon: Do we know what's being done in the UEFI Forum? Dan: Has not been tracking it ETSI and Quantum Safe Cryptography (QSC), Matthew Campagna https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-124-pquip-pquip-etsi-campagna/ (No mic line) Post-Quantum Algorithms guidance, Lucas Prabel https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-prabel-pquip-pqc-guidance/ https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/slides-124-pquip-post-quantum-algorithms-guidance/ Mike Ounsworth: Important to keep the draft neutral If this becomes a policy document, it will be the biggest bikeshed ever Lucas: Agrees to change the title of the doc Tony Li: Seeking guidance from the Routing Area Cramming PQC into routing authentication Have hashes in fields that are too small Can we truncate the hash? Paul: The question of truncating hashes is for CFRG or SAAG Drafts on how to migrate to PQC Rich Salz: We should not get involved with this at all There are too many factors and competing features Won't get consensus on hybrid vs. composite let alone which algorithms to use in each If we do something, it will be so vague as to be useless Even if it is not useless, readers would be getting guidance or requirements from governments or commerical organizations Nothing useful we can do Mike: +1 to Rich Can't get consensus on any of this Would create a bikeshed factory Kris Kwiatkowski: Author of one of those drafts If there is something useful to say, it has to be protocol-agnostic Miight give guidance to not go too many steps in a transition Paul: We should just being doing numbers vs. guidance for steps Richard Barnes: +1 to Rick and Mike Another draft was discussed in DISPATCH similar to these, and there was no agreement what to do This list of drafts is helpful because it shows that this guidance isn't needed Tim Hollebeek: Anther +1 to not doing this Woud cause confusion and slow things down Flow Driscoll: Maybe have guidance later when we have seen specific tranisitions In different industries the migration will look different and technical challenges might arise from that Some of those might be relevant to the IETF Eric Rescorla: Don't do this This shows the WG has entered the part of the lifecycle where it is looking for things to do Always be closing David Adrian: +1 to those before What tangibly would anyone do different if they see or don't see this document? If we can't specify that, it's not worth doing Nalini Elkins: Doesn't know what can be done where Probably something needs to be done somewhere There's a lot of confusion out there about government mandates It would be nice to have something Saying "do a cryptographic inventory" is not clear Doesn't knwo what can be done It would be really nice for us to possibly do is to say what might be a reasonable mandate Even though that's way out of scope There are a lot of people who are very confused, and a lot of really bad advice is going out Paul: I don't think we should even take this to the mailing list Sofia: Agrees Paul: Someone (not us) might keep a list of guidance drafts Rich: Need to take actionable things to the list Paul: What did we say that was actionable? Rich: Said that we would shut them down Paul: Didn't mean that, meant that we do not engage Rich: Should we change our charter to do this? Paul: No Rich: Should tell the list this decision Mike: Could we start a rechartering to scope ourselves down Paul: Would want to hear what the AD wants