I should scold the chairs, but I guess technically that's Chris' responsibility now :P
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:00:51.000Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "I can hear Ivaylo, with a bit of shoebox effect
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:01:27.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": ":sweat_smile:
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:01:33.000Z"}, {"author": "Nathanael Ritz", "text": "In the meantime, I have decided we need a protocol for finding misplaced drinks...
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:03:46.000Z"}, {"author": "Christopher Inacio", "text": "Paul Wouters said:
\n\n\nI should scold the chairs, but I guess technically that's Chris' responsibility now :P
\n
yeah, it would be good to at least have the note well on hand to display so the meeting can start normally. I'm sure they'll do better next time.
why, again, are the JOSE and COSE pieces in the same document?
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:10:39.000Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "to allow CWT / JWT to be easily aligned.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:13:31.000Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "And because we did the same thing with ML-DSA
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:13:56.000Z"}, {"author": "Brian Campbell", "text": "AFAIK that ML-DSA work started before the JOSE group was reopened
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:15:01.000Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "I think you might be right
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:15:36.000Z"}, {"author": "Brian Campbell", "text": "and, again, again, and again, alignment needn't be a goal
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:16:08.000Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "The COSE registry already is in blown-up state :-)
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:17:02.000Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "and often efforts at alignment introduces more problems than it causes
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:17:48.000Z"}, {"author": "Ben S", "text": "OTOH, RFC 9881 doesn't support HashML-DSA - there's an argument that RFC 9909 is an outlier within the IETF in that regard in that it supports a \"Hash-\" variant of a NIST PQ algorithm.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:17:55.000Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "I would tend to not register things unless someone says they need it.. Not hearing there is a need.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:18:01.000Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hammell", "text": "I was thinking that a pre-hash variant may be useful for firmware signing with SUIT, but it looks like draft-ietf-suit-manifest signs a SUIT_Digest for a manifest.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:18:08.000Z"}, {"author": "Robert Moskowitz", "text": "COSE may be more interested in small than other wg.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:23:18.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": "We introduced the option to sign the SUIT_Digest in SUIT for firmware updates because Hash Envelope did not exist
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:27:22.000Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "SLH gives you secure firmware updates now.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:27:35.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": "Correct.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:27:46.000Z"}, {"author": "Scott Fluhrer", "text": "Where SLH-DSA shines is the security assumption - it assumes that hash function is strong, and doesn't make any other assumptions (in contrast to ML-DSA or FN-DSA, which also assumes that the underlying lattice problems are hard)
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:29:47.000Z"}, {"author": "John Gray", "text": "NIST is specifying smaller parameter sets for SLH-DSA which may be more appropriate for some use-cases.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:31:07.000Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "Yep, I think its nice to have 2 different PQ problem spaces available.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:31:31.000Z"}, {"author": "Scott Fluhrer", "text": "As per FN-DSA, the crypto group at NIST finalized their copy of the IPD back in (IIRC) last June. It's sitting in the NIST beauracracy
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:31:47.000Z"}, {"author": "Scott Fluhrer", "text": "As for the smaller SLH-DSA parameter sets, they have quite slow signing times (but very fast verification times)
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:32:14.000Z"}, {"author": "Robert Moskowitz", "text": "Got to go. Other commitments tonight, as interesting as this is. Perhaps see some of you at saag.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:32:31.000Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Scott: Which generally is what you want for firmware updates
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:33:01.000Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hammell", "text": "Stateful hash-based signatures (LMS/HSS) is already defined for COSE in RFC 8778.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:33:33.000Z"}, {"author": "John Preu\u00df Mattsson", "text": "Hope NIST will finalise the smaller SLH-DSA signatures soon. Stateful is problematic
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:36:21.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": "That would be interesting for us
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:36:30.000Z"}, {"author": "Tirumaleswar Reddy.K", "text": "+1 for smaller SLH-DSA
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:36:42.000Z"}, {"author": "John Preu\u00df Mattsson", "text": "Smaller is at least a year away and likely more. Make a second draft.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:42:52.000Z"}, {"author": "Jonathan Hammell", "text": "Another case of smaller being slower
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:43:09.000Z"}, {"author": "Tirumaleswar Reddy.K", "text": "Yes, keep it separate; no need to stall this one.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:45:07.000Z"}, {"author": "Laurence Lundblade", "text": "Yay!
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:53:33.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": "Thank you all that we got that far!
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:53:44.000Z"}, {"author": "Brian Campbell", "text": "Wait, wat. That happened fast.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:55:54.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": ":joy:
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:56:09.000Z"}, {"author": "Brian Campbell", "text": "I was going to offer the observation, once again, for the 1000th time, that COSE and JOSE are not the same thing.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:57:17.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": "To which presentation do you want to make that comment, Brian
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:58:12.000Z"}, {"author": "Brian Campbell", "text": "An observation supported by the prior presentation on COSE HPKE that somehow defied the odds and did COSE HPKE in the COSE WG and is all about COSE.
", "time": "2026-03-20T01:59:42.000Z"}, {"author": "Emil Lundberg", "text": "Caveat on \"there are no more TBDs\": There are actually a couple of new TBDs that came in with the import of the alg IDs from the ARKG draft...
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:02:04.000Z"}, {"author": "Brian Campbell", "text": "Well, Hannes, it could apply to your presentation on FN-DSA and SLH-DSA but more recently was hoping to make that point about the presentation on draft-reddy-cose-jose-pqc-hybrid-hpke
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:03:43.000Z"}, {"author": "Brian Sipos", "text": "I am available
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:03:55.000Z"}, {"author": "Karen O'Donoghue", "text": "@Brian Tiru's presentation was pulled based on the discussion in JOSE - where the authors of those two docs are going to get together and figure out a way forward for those two documents. YOu probably realize this, but I want to ensure others on this chat do as well.
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:05:31.000Z"}, {"author": "John Preu\u00df Mattsson", "text": "It was a BAD decision
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:06:11.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": "The point of my presentation was to constrast the decisions regarding algorithm registrations in LAMPS for SLH-DSA with the work on the COSE/JOSE versions and to solicit feedback regarding the algorithm registrations. So, if someone in the room has different use cases for JOSE and COSE we can accomodate for that. So, I do not see a contraction with your statement.
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:06:36.000Z"}, {"author": "Brian Campbell", "text": "@Karen, yes but does it make sense to pull the presentation of the COSE work from the COSE group because of something that happened in the JOSE group?
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:07:51.000Z"}, {"author": "Russ Housley", "text": "I support adding AES-CMAC
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:08:01.000Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "+1
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:08:15.000Z"}, {"author": "Adam Wiethuechter", "text": "+1
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:08:32.000Z"}, {"author": "Russ Housley", "text": "Do something with AES-CBC-MAC separately
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:09:02.000Z"}, {"author": "Karen O'Donoghue", "text": "@Brian... well Tiru emailed that request a couple of days ago and no one suggested that he should still present here.
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:09:12.000Z"}, {"author": "John Preu\u00df Mattsson", "text": "Just register CMAC and save deprecating CBC-MAC to abother draft
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:11:11.000Z"}, {"author": "Orie Steele", "text": "+1 John
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:11:24.000Z"}, {"author": "John Preu\u00df Mattsson", "text": "I have read it
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:11:24.000Z"}, {"author": "Adam Wiethuechter", "text": "Concur with John
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:11:29.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": "Sure!
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:11:49.000Z"}, {"author": "John Gray", "text": "I can read it...
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:12:02.000Z"}, {"author": "Russ Housley", "text": "Okay
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:12:05.000Z"}, {"author": "David Waite", "text": "this time can it be a dramatic reading?
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:12:36.000Z"}, {"author": "Peter Yee", "text": ":joy:
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:13:07.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": "We can use the time to read the draft
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:13:26.000Z"}, {"author": "Brian Campbell", "text": "@Karen where did Tiru send an email and for what was the request?
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:13:33.000Z"}, {"author": "Paul Wouters", "text": "thanks all ! :)
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:13:39.000Z"}, {"author": "John Gray", "text": "A dramatic reading... Lol...
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:13:40.000Z"}, {"author": "Hannes Tschofenig", "text": "Thanks for the meeting
", "time": "2026-03-20T02:14:08.000Z"}]