Narrative Minutes


Summarized Agenda for the December 15, 2005 IESG Teleconference

This agenda was generated at 17:13:5 EDT, December 14, 2005

1. Administrivia

1.1 Roll Call

1.2 Bash the Agenda

Allison Mankin has three additional documents that need to be expedited - will be discussed, if there is time. Allison also has a new item on IANA port registration, but is still discussing so will process this on e-mail.

1.3 Approval of the Minutes

December 1 telechat minutes were approved with no objection. Scribes were chastised about narrative minutes and offered up the December 1 narrative minutes as a peace offering. Brian would like to catch up on narrative minutes by the next telechat.

1.4 Review of Action Items

Brian Carpenter noted that the proposal to announce drafts when they are adopted as working group drafts is still open.

1.5 Review of Projects

Jon Peterson has updated the project review list, but we don't have dates for the first two projects yet. All to inform him if they have updates. Brian noted that IESG needs to schedule a serious review instead of just mentioning updates at each telechat.

2. Protocol Actions

2.1 WG Submissions

2.1.1 New Item

o draft-ietf-kink-kink-11.txt

Kerberized Internet Negotiation of Keys (KINK) (Proposed Standard) - 1 of 9

Token: Sam Hartman

Amy noted that the last time this was looked at was in 2003.

Sam noted that the RFC Editor note for this document isn't complete (Point Raised, Writeup Needed)

o draft-ietf-pwe3-satop-03.txt

Structure-Agnostic TDM over Packet (SAToP) (Proposed Standard) - 2 of 9

Token: Mark Townsley

Mark Townsley noted that there are DISCUSS ballots against this draft that would require a revised ID.

o draft-ietf-msec-bootstrapping-tesla-02.txt

Bootstrapping TESLA (Proposed Standard) - 3 of 9

Token: Russ Housley

Russ Housley noted Bill Fenner's downref comment, and pointed out that the IESG has a downref comment every time an Informational crypto algorithm is referenced in a standards-track document, and asked if we could update the BCP to say that crypto downrefs are OK.

Sam Hartman noted that he asked about this on the IETF list, but got pushback, although Sam believes that a workable arrangement is possible. Margaret Wasserman asked "why is MD-5 only Informational?". Sam pointed out that IETF doesn't have the expertise to review crypto algorithms, and only publishes them to have a stable reference

Brian Carpenter - We are referring to it because it is a stable reference - the same as a textbook reference.

Margaret asked how we can update the BCP without letting anyone downref anything, and suggested that maybe a new document type is needed.

Sam said AD agreement was required.

Allison pointed out that listing allowable downrefs could be done in the Wiki under discussion, and also pointed out that this document was time-critical.

Russ concluded by saying that a new I-D was needed.

o draft-ietf-radext-digest-auth-06.txt

RADIUS Extension for Digest Authentication (Proposed Standard) - 4 of 9

Note: Note: Bernard Aboba is the proto shepherd

Token: David Kessens

Amy noted that there are five DISCUSS ballots

Margaret noted that this is a time-critical document.

Michelle noted that the authors have requested one IANA value that is already assigned, and David said that he would let the authors know about the conflict.

o draft-ietf-enum-voice-01.txt

IANA Registration for Enumservice Voice (Proposed Standard) - 5 of 9

Token: Allison Mankin

This document was approved with no discussion.

o draft-ietf-avt-uncomp-video-ext-01.txt

RTP Payload Format for Uncompressed Video: Additional Colour Sampling Modes

(Proposed Standard) - 6 of 9

Note: PROTO shepherd:

Token: Allison Mankin

This document was approved with no discussion during the telechat. Allison has two comments, so the document goes into Point Raised.

o draft-ietf-simple-presence-data-model-06.txt

A Data Model for Presence (Proposed Standard) - 7 of 9

Note: Much of the language here reflects long discussion and compromise.�,

Please recognize that when suggesting wordsmithing changes.

Token: Ted Hardie

Ted will follow up on two DISCUSS ballots, and said that a revised ID is needed for internationalization considerations.

o Two-document ballot: - 8 of 9

- draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-online-signing-00.txt

Minimally Covering NSEC Records and DNSSEC On-line Signing (Proposed


Note: PROTO shepherd is Olafur Gudmundsson <>.

See ballot write-up for discussion of IETF LC issue.

- draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-name-p-s-01.txt

Derivation of DNS Name Predecessor and Successor (Experimental)

Note: Goes with draft-ietf-dnsext-online-signing.�, This is an example

of a specific algorithm for online signing.

Token: Margaret Wasserman

Ted Hardie had ballotted DISCUSS referring to a BIS draft, but Margaret noted that the BIS draft has already been published - only an Informational clarifications draft is currently active in the working group.

Allison noted that this draft is the short-term solution in conflict with the NSEC3 DNSSEC extension, and that most of the vocal objections to the draft is coming from NSEC3 authors, who raised legitimate concerns late in the review cycle. Ted said the document needs an applicability statement on when online signing is justified, since online signing increases the risk of key discovery because a private key must be available online. Margaret will discuss this with the working group chairs.

o draft-ietf-avt-rtp-vmr-wb-extension-02.txt

Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) Payload Format for the Variable-Rate

Multimode Wideband (VMR-WB) Extension Audio Codec (Proposed Standard) - 9

of 9

Token: Allison Mankin

This draft was approved with no discussion.

2.1.2 Returning Item

o draft-ietf-mpls-lsp-ping-12.txt

Detecting MPLS Data Plane Failures (Proposed Standard) - 1 of 3

Note: ITU requires an RFC number by December 12th.

Token: Alex Zinin

Bill Fenner noted that his DISCUSS on this document is for Michelle Cotton on IANA considerations.

Sam Hartman is now OK with section 4.4 of the draft, but has concerns about normative references in section 3.

There was considerable discussion on how the document might be restructured to minimize the reference dependencies and get an RFC number with to meet ITU's needs (and this discussion did not include Bill Fenner's proffered rant on process versus progress, which he deferred at Brian's request due to time constraints). The fundamental problem is that this draft is describing a deployed protocol, and ADs are trying to get something published, even with Informative references, in order to describe that deployed protocol. Alex agreed to follow up with the authors based on this discussion.

o draft-ietf-pwe3-ethernet-encap-11.txt

Encapsulation Methods for Transport of Ethernet Over MPLS Networks

(Proposed Standard) - 2 of 3

Note: Document was updated, back on agenda to discuss whether DISCUSS items

are satisfactory addressed.

Token: Mark Townsley

This document was approved after the last DISCUSS ballot was cleared this morning, with no discussion.

o draft-ietf-ipv6-privacy-addrs-v2-04.txt

Privacy Extensions for Stateless Address Autoconfiguration in IPv6 (Draft

Standard) - 3 of 3

Note: PROTO shepherd is Brian Haberman <>.

Token: Margaret Wasserman

Allison Mankin said she hadn't balloted because she had been thinking about worms in this environment, but then balloted "YES". Margaret noticed that the document has a normative reference to the IPv6 Addressing Architecture document, which is still at Proposed Standard, so she needs to follow up with the chairs - the document may be published as Proposed Standard instead of the requested Draft Standard level.

2.2 Individual Submissions

2.2.1 New Item

o draft-harris-ssh-rsa-kex-05.txt

Rivest-Shamir-Adleman (RSA) key exchange for the Secure Shell (SSH)

Transport Layer Protocol (Proposed Standard) - 1 of 1

Token: Sam Hartman

Sam said his biggest problem is contacting the author, who is needed to approve the RFC Editor Note for this document - Sam will contact the author, or find another author.

2.2.2 Returning Item


3. Document Actions

3.1 WG Submissions

Reviews should focus on these questions: "Is this document a reasonable

contribution to the area of Internet engineering which it covers? If

not, what changes would make it so?"

3.1.1 New Item

o draft-ietf-v6ops-onlinkassumption-03.txt

IPv6 Neighbor Discovery On-Link Assumption Considered Harmful

(Informational) - 1 of 7

Note: Fred Baker is the proto shepherd

Token: David Kessens

Ted Hardie noted that the authors are still discussing changes to this draft. Brian Carpenter has comments that should be fixed but would not block the document based on those comments. The document was approved, as Point Raised/Revised ID Needed.

A Framework for Supporting Emergency Telecommunications Services (ETS)

Within a Single Administrative Domain (Informational) - 2 of 7

Token: Jon Peterson

Jon Peterson said a revised ID is needed to address the four DISCUSS ballots on this document.

o draft-ietf-newtrk-decruft-experiment-02.txt

Getting rid of the cruft: an experiment to identify obsolete standards

document (Informational) - 3 of 7

Token: Brian Carpenter

Brian Carpenter noted that Russ's DISCUSS was on the title, not on the document, and that when this document is approved, a lot of Protocol Actions moving RFCs to Historic will be sent out. Margaret said that ADs reviewed the list of RFCs more carefully than rest of the document, so that was fine. Amy noted that there are enough YES votes to approve this document as a Protocol Action, once the DISCUSS clears. Mark Townsley said that DSL Forum has just referenced one affected RFC - Mark will ballot DISCUSS to remove that RFC from the list with an RFC Editor Note.

o draft-ietf-webdav-redirectref-protocol-13.txt

Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV) Redirect Reference

Resources (Experimental) - 4 of 7

Token: Ted Hardie

Ted Hardie noted that the RFC Editor note is now correct for this draft, and the document was approved with no discussion.

o draft-ietf-v6ops-vlan-usage-00.txt

Use of VLANs for IPv4-IPv6 Coexistence in Enterprise Networks

(Informational) - 5 of 7

Note: Fred Baker is the proto shepherd

Token: David Kessens

Bill Fenner questioned whether this document was simply stating the obvious. David Kessens has discussed this with the working group, but they feel the document is important enough to publish. Allison Mankin noted that the comment on Security Considerations seemed important, and there may be an RFC Editor note about this, but the document is approved.

o Two-document ballot: - 6 of 7

- draft-ietf-rohc-sigcomp-user-guide-04.txt

SigComp Users' Guide (Informational)

Note: Both docs' References are re-labelled Normative and 2026,

3978-3879 removed by RFCEDNotes. PROTO shepherd

- draft-ietf-rohc-sigcomp-torture-tests-03.txt

SigComp Torture Tests (Informational)

Note: PROTO shepherd

Token: Allison Mankin

Allison Mankin asked (to general mirth) if there was already assembly code in the RFC series - Bill Fenner and Brian Carpenter said "yes, and even stranger stuff in the early RFCs". Margaret Wasserman noted that the RFC Editor has been doing good work lately (and tried to imagine RFC-Editing the assembly code). The document was approved with no objection.

o draft-ietf-tsvwg-sctpimpguide-16.txt

Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP) Specification Errata and Issues

(Informational) - 7 of 7

Note: See writeup for brief explanation about why Info, and text for more -

was LC'd for PS in case.. PROTO shepherd James Polk

Token: Allison Mankin

Allison mentioned that Gen-ART raised the question of proposed standard for this specification, but that the working group does not want an intermediate standards-track delta between RFC 2960 and a serious rewrite (which is planned). Brian pointed out, "this is a snapshot of a large number of errata". The document was approved. Ted suggested an RFC Editor note clarifying the interim nature of the specification.

3.1.2 Returning Item

o draft-ietf-dnsop-ipv6-dns-issues-12.txt

Operational Considerations and Issues with IPv6 DNS (Informational) - 1 of


Token: David Kessens

Margaret Wasserman agrees with the author's suggestion for RFC Editor note. David will follow up.

o Two-document ballot: - 2 of 2

- draft-ietf-mpls-oam-requirements-06.txt

OAM Requirements for MPLS Networks (Informational)

Note: ITU requires an RFC number by December 12th.

- draft-ietf-mpls-oam-frmwk-04.txt

A Framework for MPLS Operations and Management (OAM) (Informational)

Token: Alex Zinin

These documents were moved to the next telechat at Alex's request.

3.2 Individual Submissions Via AD

Reviews should focus on these questions: "Is this document a reasonable

contribution to the area of Internet engineering which it covers? If

not, what changes would make it so?"

3.2.1 New Item

o draft-andrews-dlv-dns-rr-00.txt

The DNSSEC Lookaside Validation (DLV) DNS Resource Record (Informational) -

1 of 1

Note: Individual submission for DLV typecode.

Token: Margaret Wasserman

Russ Housley's DISCUSS ballot resulted because this document is intended to provide a stable reference, not a complete definition of DLV, but at least some description of where authentication (which is included) comes from, and the front matter says something about security. Russ will discuss this direcrly with Sam Wilder.

3.2.2 Returning Item


3.3 Individual Submissions Via RFC Editor

3.3.1 New Item

o draft-jaganathan-kerberos-http-01.txt

Kerberos based HTTP Authentication in Windows (Informational) - 1 of 2

Note: RFC-Editor submission.

Token: Scott Hollenbeck

Allison Mankin raised some concerns about HTTP-AUTH in a non-IETF document, but there is no HTTP working group to even work on problems if we found any, and we already have the header allocated - this document is simply defining a new challenge. Scott Hollenbeck said there were no IANA considerations. The document was "no-objected".

o draft-zenner-rabbit-02.txt

A Description of the Rabbit Stream Cipher Algorithm (Informational) - 2 of


Token: Russ Housley

This document was "no-objected". Russ noted that the comments in the IETF tracker were good comments, but a pointer to the comments for the authors is sufficient.

3.3.2 Returning Item

o draft-manning-opcode-discover-02.txt

DISCOVER: Supporting Multicast DNS Queries (Experimental) - 1 of 1

Note: Proposing DNP note to the RFC editor because IETF standards action is

required for DNS opcode allocation.�, See ballot write-up for details.

Token: Margaret Wasserman

There was general confusion on this ballot item because we haven't processed a Do-Not-Publish (DNP) note in more than two years ("Does 'YES' mean 'yes, publish the document' or 'yes, publish the note'?"). Bert noted that DNP is advisory (RFC Editor takes DNP into account but isn't bound by DNP), and asked "what if the RFC Editor publishes it anyway?" Joyce noted that IANA wouldn't allocate the opcode because a standards action is required for this registry, so the RFC Editor would decline to publish on this basis anyway. Sam said that the DNP needed to appear on IETF Announce, Brian agreed, and Amy said this would happen.

4. Working Group Actions

4.1 WG Creation

It was noted that some charters for review contain proposed chairs, while others do not. Oral tradition is that when chairs are proposed, they are copied on charter discussion, but the chairs are not listed in public requests for review in any event.

4.1.1 Proposed for IETF Review

o Domain Keys Identified Mail (dkim) - 1 of 4

Token: Russ Housley

o EAP Method Update (emu) - 2 of 4

Token: Sam Hartman

Russ said that he wanted to send the existing charter out for review and ask people to bring up comments on the list. This was agreed on.

o Diameter Maintanence and Extentions (dime) - 3 of 4

Token: David Kessens

Bert noted that this is actually his token (Dave sent the e-mail while Bert was on vacation). Allison has found spelling errors and Bert has a one-line change to make, so Bert will provide the new charter, and it will be sent for external comments next week.. There are no proposed chairs yet - after response from reviews, Bert and David will start soliciting volunteers.

o Network-based Localized Mobility Management (netlmm) - 4 of 4

Token: Margaret Wasserman

Leslie said IAB members are talking directly with working group chairs, but no ADs had objections to external review.

4.1.2 Proposed for Approval


4.2 WG Rechartering

4.2.1 Under evaluation for IETF Review

o Pseudo Wire Emulation Edge to Edge (pwe3) - 1 of 3

Token: Mark Townsley

Mark Townsley pointed out that the charter update is documenting what the working group is actually doing - several items already have working group documents adopted. There were questions about the alignment between goals and milestones, but the charter was approved for external review while Mark polishes the goals and milestones.

o Network Configuration (netconf) - 2 of 3

Token: Bert Wijnen

Bert noted that the charter has only one change, adding asynchronous notifications back after discussin with the working group, and that the working group has finished all other documents. This updated charter will be sent for external review.

o Extended Incident Handling (inch) - 3 of 3

Token: Sam Hartman

Sam noted that the working group needed to choose a transport (SOAP), but didn't have this in their charter, and wanted to wordsmith to explain how people are actually using their specifications. The charter is clear enough about privacy, and the working group agrees that privacy is in scope (this was Steve Bellovin's comment). Inch was approved for re-chartering.

4.2.2 Proposed for Approval

o Mobility for IPv4 (mip4) - 1 of 1

Token: Margaret Wasserman

This charter update was approved.

5. IAB News We can use

Dave Meyer said:

6. Management Issue

6.1 Timeout on AUTH48 (Brian Carpenter)

Brian deferred this item because the agenda was so full.

6.2 Decision on efficiency retreat (Brian Carpenter)

Brian pointed out that he has received two agenda proposals, for two very different kinds of meetings (one from Allison Mankin, one from Ted Hardie). The group agreed to hold a two-day meeting in the Bay Area, January 30-31st, far enough from the city so that everyone would be staying in the meeting hotel (goals are to do work and spend time talking in the evenings). Alex will provide a proposal for a hotel, including meeting room, guest rooms, wireless access, in a format that ISOC accountants will believe, by the first full week in January.

6.3 Expedited Handling Request (Allison Mankin)

Expedited handling for AMR, ENUM Message, and MMS Mapping were approved, with a January 20 target for all three.

6.4 Dean Anderson PR action (David Kessens)

Leslie and David Meyer left the call (in case of a later appeal to IAB), and further discussion was un-minuted.

6.5 Noting appeal responses (Brian Carpenter)

Brian Carpenter provided text for the minutes (summarized as "we have responded to appeals", period).

6.6 Possible Message to IETF-Announce (Ted Hardie)

Ted Hardie will craft a note about the criteria we are using for scheme evaluation on e-mail. The IESG agreed to send the note when it's ready.

7. Agenda Working Group News

This agenda item was not discussed in the meeting - news will be reported via e-mail.