Narrative Minutes

INTERNET ENGINEERING STEERING GROUP (IESG)
Narrative Minutes for the April 5, 2007 IESG Teleconference

Narrative Scribe: Spencer Dawkins <spencer@mcsr-labs.org>

With corrections from Lars Eggert, Jari Arkko. Russ Housley.

1. Administrivia

1.1 Roll Call

Lisa is back in the saddle again... welcome back!

1.2 Bash the Agenda

Nothing new... no changes.

1.3 Approval of the Minutes

March 8th telechat minutes were approved with no discussion.

1.4 Review of Action Items

Cullen on well-known protocol name - still open.

Dan has management issue on his outstanding task.

Mark - RFC 3293 expert - thought he did this? will verify and report back.

Ross - still outstanding

1.5 Review of Projects
http://www.unreason.com/jfp/iesg-projects

Update reflects IETF 68 status, please let Jon know if there are issues. May need to revisit with full staff for agenda.

2. Protocol Actions
Reviews should focus on these questions: "Is this document a
reasonable basis on which to build the salient part of the Internet
infrastructure? If not, what changes would make it so?"

2.1 WG Submissions
2.1.1 New Item
o draft-ietf-isis-link-attr-03.txt
Definition of an IS-IS Link Attribute sub-TLV (Proposed Standard) - 1 of 5
Token: Ross Callon

Lisa did not state a position, nor Cullen.

Two DISCUSSes, Ron's is straightforward, Ross will discuss offline with Sam. One author is on medical leave for three weeks, may have to wait for author approval.

Revised ID needed, don't want a big RFC Editor note.

Cullen - author could object in AUTH-48 - if other authors agree, don't have to wait to move forward.

o draft-ietf-pkix-scvp-31.txt
Server-based Certificate Validation Protocol (SCVP) (Proposed Standard) - 2 of 5
Token: Sam Hartman

Two DISCUSSes, don't need to discuss today, if Lisa can respond to Sam, that would be helpful (she did this about 20 minutes ago).

Lisa - we agree, don't want to put many requirements on this protocol.

Revised ID needed.

o draft-ietf-eap-keying-18.txt
Extensible Authentication Protocol (EAP) Key Management Framework (Proposed Standard) - 3 of 5
Token: Jari Arkko

Number of DISCUSSes - need to talk.

Jari - both Sam and Russ are referring to Housley doc, can one remove the DISCUSS? Russ will do so. Tim is not on the call, but we have text for that. Sam has seen text from Bernard, but Jari can't find it. Bernard convinced Sam that he can fix all the real problems. We need the housley draft, too.

Will stay in DISCUSS and see what Bernard says.

o draft-ietf-lemonade-search-within-04.txt
WITHIN Search extension to the IMAP Protocol (Proposed Standard) - 4 of 5
Token: Chris Newman

Two DISCUSSes, will discuss briefly. Is Lars satisfied by moving text up?

Lars - Rounding is problematic, either get too much information or not enough. Cullen can hold this issue and will edit DISCUSS.

Cullen - do you agree that returning a superset is the right thing to do?

Chris - intentional from the working group, but don't want to recompute dynamic search every second for scalability. Need some wiggle room here, agree with DISCUSS that we need to get better text.

Revised ID needed.

o draft-ietf-pwe3-aii-aggregate-02.txt
AII Types for Aggregation (Proposed Standard) - 5 of 5
Token: Mark Townsley

Lisa did not state a position on this document.

Document has enough YES/NO-OBJs to pass. Approved?

Russ - did Mark see list of nits from Pasi's review? Not yet. They aren't blocking, but there are a lot.

Mark - will definitely look at this.

Russ - approved, this is all AUTH-48 stuff

Mark - now remember that he HAS seen Pasi's text (it's in the RFC Editor note).

Approved, will be announced Monday.

2.1.2 Returning Item
NONE

2.2 Individual Submissions
2.2.1 New Item
o draft-siemborski-rfc1734bis-11.txt
POP3 SASL Authentication Mechanism (Proposed Standard) - 1 of 3
Token: Lisa Dusseault

One DISCUSS - very clear, will confirm with authors. Thanks to Magnus for his comments.

Sam is clearing his DISCUSS.

Approved, point raised.

o draft-wing-behave-symmetric-rtprtcp-02.txt
Common Local Transmit and Receive Ports (Symmetric RTP) (BCP) - 2 of 3
Note: Picked up from RFC-editor independent submission to be a AD-sponsored
BCP. Was earlier through an RFC 3932 review, so please re-review.
Token: Magnus Westerlund

Open DISCUSS, don't need to talk, Revised ID needed.

o draft-bagnulo-multiple-hash-cga-03.txt
Support for Multiple Hash Algorithms in Cryptographically Generated Addresses (CGAs) (Proposed Standard) - 3 of 3
Note: Document shepherd: James Kempf <kempf@docomolabs-usa.com>
Token: Russ Housley

Document has enough positions to be approved. Any objections? Nope.

Russ - Chris your comment about the "must not" ... it should remain lower case since it is not testable.

2.2.2 Returning Item
o draft-klensin-norm-ref-04.txt
Handling Normative References to Standards Track Documents (BCP) - 1 of 1
Note: Target and scope changed from process experiment to BCP
Token: Russ Housley

Any objections to approving? None.

Russ - let the rejoicing begin...

3. Document Actions

3.1 WG Submissions
Reviews should focus on these questions: "Is this document a reasonable
contribution to the area of Internet engineering which it covers? If
not, what changes would make it so?"

3.1.1 New Item
o draft-ietf-tcpm-tcp-antispoof-06.txt
Defending TCP Against Spoofing Attacks (Informational) - 1 of 3
Note: Document Shepherd: Ted Faber (faber@isi.edu)
Token: Lars Eggert

Any objection to publication?

Lars - point raised, need to respond to Gen-ART review.

Jari - not holding DISCUSS, my suggestions are up to the authors.

Approved, point raised.

o draft-ietf-16ng-ipv6-link-model-analysis-03.txt
Analysis of IPv6 Link Models for 802.16 based Networks (Informational) - 2 of 3
Note: PROTO Shepherd is Soohong Daniel Park
<soohong.park@samsung.com>
Token: Jari Arkko

DEFERed.

o draft-ietf-trill-routing-reqs-02.txt
TRILL Routing Requirements in Support of RBridges (Informational) - 3 of 3
Token: Mark Townsley

DEFERed.

3.1.2 Returning Item
o draft-ietf-dna-link-information-06.txt
Link-layer Event Notifications for Detecting Network Attachments (Informational) - 1 of 1
Token: Jari Arkko

No DISCUSSes - any objections? None on the call, approved for publication.

3.2 Individual Submissions Via AD
Reviews should focus on these questions: "Is this document a reasonable
contribution to the area of Internet engineering which it covers? If
not, what changes would make it so?"

3.2.1 New Item
o draft-mule-ietf-cablelabs-collaboration-03.txt
CableLabs - IETF Standardization Collaboration (Informational) - 1 of 1
Token: Jari Arkko

Jari holds only DISCUSS (for IANA, they have questions. We've responded, IANA is happy with response).

Cullen - still kind of confused about what references/URLs are used for Cablelabs document, but this is a COMMENT.

Jari - will get this addressed. How many votes do we need?

Russ - no requirement for Informationals.

3.2.2 Returning Item
NONE
3.3 Independent Submissions Via RFC Editor
The IESG will use RFC 3932 responses: 1) The IESG has not
found any conflict between this document and IETF work; 2) The
IESG thinks that this work is related to IETF work done in WG
<X>, but this does not prevent publishing; 3) The IESG thinks
that publication is harmful to work in WG <X> and recommends
not publishing at this time; 4) The IESG thinks that this
document violates the IETF procedures for <X> and should
therefore not be published without IETF review and IESG
approval; 5) The IESG thinks that this document extends an
IETF protocol in a way that requires IETF review and should
therefore not be published without IETF review and IESG approval.


Other matters may be recorded in comments to be passed on
to the RFC Editor as community review of the document.

3.3.1 New Item
NONE
3.3.2 Returning Item
NONE

4. Working Group Actions
4.1 WG Creation
4.1.1 Proposed for IETF Review
NONE
4.1.2 Proposed for Approval
NONE
4.2 WG Rechartering
4.2.1 Under evaluation for IETF Review
NONE
4.2.2 Proposed for Approval
o Network Mobility (nemo) - 1 of 1
Token: Jari Arkko

Any objections?

Russ - this has been going on forever. Can you summarize last change?

Jari - Dave Kessens still thought charter was too vague, WG could do anything. Also wanted some constraints on kinds of movement. Also wanted to be clearer that they work on one document and then recharter. Added rechartering step for two out of three items. Haven't seen any e-mail back from Dave Kessens (did specifically ask).

Jari - please wait for my announcement text, yours is from previous round.

5. IAB News We can use

Olaf - Retreat scheduled for end of June, Have approved bad traffic workshop report, also routing/addressing report.

Loa - also put together subgroup on routing and addressing.

Olaf - still sorting out what we want to say, figuring out directions, will continue to work on that.

Lars - was feedback on the report included in the final version?

Mark - Thomas Narten text seems to have disappeared in the last couple of hours.

Lars - please take his comments into account.

Olaf - also need some references help

Loa - will take that into account

Olaf - one more thing - selected ISOC board of trustees candidate, being confirmed in IAB now. Need to finish by May 11.

Russ - we need management item to confirm this on next telechat agenda (April 19)

6. Management Issue

6.1 IANA registration for RFC 4235 (Cullen Jennings)

We messed up the IANA registration - just add the omission to the IANA registry?

Russ - new expert?

Cullen - no, this is changing one entry. We missed one in IANA section that's defined in the document body.

Michelle - just send a ticket and we can handle additions from the document text.

No objections to handling this in the suggested way.

6.2 Designated Expert for RFC 4204 registry (lmp-parameters) [IANA #68382] (Michelle Cotton)

Russ - did we assign this before the call?

Lars - should be Ross Callon, can't be anyone else.

Ross - so I have this and 4728? What does expert do?

Russ - make sure code point requests make sense.

Ross - have someone in mind, will check.

Russ - please add as an action item.

6.3 Designated Expert for RFC 4430 registry (kink-parameters) [IANA #68378] (Michelle Cotton)

Sam has two candidates, want to confirm that IESG has no problems with candiates. They have sufficient kerberos knowledge and IPSec knowledge. Understanding is that IANA prefers a primary and a backup - is this right?

Michelle - correct, so we don't have to bug you guys.

Sam took an action item to identify appropriate expert(s).

6.4 IANA experts for RFC 3165 (Dan Romascanu)

Dan has proposed two candidates - anyone objecting?

Lars - 2434bis says one person - do you want one person or two?

Michelle - nice to have two, especially if there's a lot of traffic and we need to split the work. One expert is fine, but backup doesn't hurt anything.

Russ - not hearing any objections.

Michelle will ping Dan for current text.

Russ - please save that template...

6.5 Designated Expert for RFC 4807 registry (sdpActions) [IANA #68396] (Michelle Cotton)

Russ - looks like a MIB thing... whoever I asked to do this isn't on the call...

Russ - candidate has agreed to do this - any objection? None...

6.6 Designated Expert for RFC 4112 (ecmlv2-parameters) [IANA #68372] (Michelle Cotton)

Michelle - have Chris and Lisa found a candidate?

Chris and Lisa - yes, any objection?

Loa - this is in the IAB matrix, why do we need an expert?

Michelle - there are three registries that need expert review.

6.7 Approving selection of the IESG Liason to the IAB (Mark Townsley)

Russ - we agreed that Mark would be liaison in Prague, just minuting here.

Olaf - no e-mail needed, we're ready to go.

6.8 Approval of the AD sponsoring guidelines ION (Jari Arkko)

Any objections to approving? None on the call.

Ross - Cullen and Ron will post this, right?

Brian already did...

6.9 EGLOP Discussion [IANA #68011] (Michelle Cotton)

Michelle - looking for some kind of response to the note we've sent. Any particular AD who should be responding?

Russ - not clear what I should be doing here.

Olaf - any need to change existing RFCs?

Michelle - these are multicast addresses, assigned through expert review

Russ - problem is that RFC says IETF isn't in charge of addresses - between ICANN and RIRs.

Michelle - Dave was expert, was assigned by IESG a long time ago, Dave is stepping down.

Ron - are addresses ours to dole out in the first place?

Russ - we may not have jurisdiction

Sam - we do have some control over addresses used by protocols. Not clear that IESG has jurisdiction in EGLOP space.

Michelle - EGLOP allocated by RFC, is that it?

Sam - we can express an opinion, just not a blocking opinion

Ron - we should have jurisdiction over "all router" kinds of addresses

Russ - but that's not what this is.

Ron will have action item to follow up on the EGLOP issue raised by Michelle

6.10 Designated Expert for RFC 3936 registry (rsvp-parameters) [IANA #68374] (Michelle Cotton)

Used to ask Bob Braden, but no person has been designated as expert for RSVP.

Magnus - still looking for an expert, haven't found anyone yet.

Magnus will have action item for this.

6.11 Designated Expert for RFC 4065 (card and cxtp parameters) [IANA #68373] (Michelle Cotton)

Michelle - Magnus has candidate, willing to serve - any problems with candidate?

No issues raised on call. Will send note to IANA for candidate.

6.12 Question regarding route-distinguisher-types [IANA #62509] (Michelle Cotton)

Michelle - think Mark was lead for this question about verbiage in RFC that established the registry - was document correct, or was there a mistake?

Russ - we'll assign this as an action item to Mark.

Ross - is it OK if author is designated expert?

Russ - we often do that.

Michelle - the person who knows most about the protocol.

6.13 Developing metrics in the IETF (Lars Eggert)

Discussion about metrics for applications. IPPM has charter item that references an IESG document that doesn't exist, ball was dropped last year, so there's nothing there. Can some IESG folks who have an interest in this put together a draft (working with IPPM)?

Russ - "how do these things progress up standards track?", right/

Lars - have a lot of PSes, but don't know how to "interop test", etc. Good news is that metrics are often used by other SDOs. But it's not clear what to do with something that's not a protocol.

Sam - does IESG really need to be blocking? Just ask IPPM to add a charter item?

Lars - doesn't have the most energy in the IETF.

Sam - if that's your best judgement, I have no problem with it.

Cullen -willing to help but not sure what document should say.

Lars - will write an e-mail about this. Talked about review for metrics - do we need a directorate? that might write this document?

Cullen - may not even be cross-area.

Lars - BMWG may also be involved. Got an e-mail from application-layer metrics guy - Alan Clark - who asked if he can help with this effort (do a BOF, etc).

Cullen - mostly interested in audio/video metrics. There is expertise needed, and eventually every area would use this guidance. Cross-area review team with document for guidance would work. Document is the piece that's missing.

Lars - implementation test is the hard part for moving to Draft Standard. Can we discuss at the retreat? Maybe off on the side?

Russ - a few minutes, but not a lot of time.

Lars - Dan would be interested.

Cullen - Lars will corner people to write a document?

Lars - will send hit list of candidates for a team, collect ideas for process. Not ready to write the document yet.

6.14 TMC (Tools Management Committee) (Cullen Jennings)

Russ - agreed that Cullen would be our representative in Prague, just want it minuted.

6.15 Ethertypes question [IANA #59947] (Michelle Cotton)

Michelle got a query about registry that duplicates IEEE assignments, but there are discrepencies. What to do? Update? Point to IEEE site? Got some feedback, want to know about involving liaison.

Jari - someone needs to do actual work to figure out what's going on.

Russ - did you contact Bernard? he's all of 802 liaison.

Jari assigned action to find a person to work with IANA.

6.16 Designated expert for RFC 4790 (Chris Newman)

Any objection to candidate? None on the call.

Michelle - trying not to send more than 4-5 expert requests per telechat...

Russ - seems fine.

7. Agenda Working Group News

Jari Arkko - still need second chair for NetLLM, still worry about ROAP

Ron Bonica - still looking for chairs for OPSWG, GROW

Ross Callon - OSPF chair has been inactive, planning to replace, have good candidates.

Lisa Dusseault - no

Lars Eggert - closed PMTU-D, finished important document and ignored the MIB. Can do MIB in TSVWG if anyone cares. PCN off to good start, had open meeting discussing initial working group items. Close to closing RDDP and TCPM is about to publish several documents. Design team contributor became an AD.. NSFv4 wondering about way forward for SDKM.

- Sam - can do whatever they want, there are lots of options. Anything except normative reference to SDKM. Can even be informative, can say there are lots of implementations of this.

- Lars - problem is that revision guidelines aren't congruent..

Sam Hartman - KITTEN chair resigned, looking for chairs. Candidate willing to serve beginning in June, new chair with no experience willing to serve (would like to involve him), but need to decide what to do until the second chair becomes available. May make more open call for chairs. May need to accept they won't make progress before Chicago - easier than other options. We'll see what happens with IFARE in Chicago - think they want to try a BOF again. We'll see if they get there.

Russ Housley - Saturday before Chicago shindig with SG chairs. Initial approach was that this would be meet-and-greet, but some people want more structure. What requirements do ADs have for structure of this meeting?

- Cullen -"do no harm" meeting, don't do anything that repeats previous bad experiences.

- Russ - two suggestions, tight agenda and argue ahead of time or have open meeting format.

- Cullen - like second approach. Think it would be great to meet people.

- Russ - how do we make sure they'll come? If there's not agenda.

- Jon - not sure where this came from (even what side). If best option is to not meet, I'm fine with that. Don't get trapped into an agenda for two days, etc.

- Russ - starts after breakfast

- Ross - overlaps RRG on Saturday

- Sam - I know which meeting I'd attend. One way to do harm is spending a lot of time planning that could be better spent on something else.

- Russ - you're not the only one to point this out. Am concerned about potential time required for agenda planning. Remember agenda from last time. Is there a topic WE want on the agenda? (silence follows)

- Sam - I'll shut up, I'm the only one who thinks this is a bad item - when Brian did straw poll.

- Jari - this has ballooned from dinner to something else.

- Sam - two questions - no, it's a bad idea, and yes, I can be there.

- Russ - I understand where they are

Cullen Jennings - <Geopriv was discussed, not minuted>, just getting caught up after Prague, on vacation next week.

Chris Newman - no

Jon Peterson - Emergency Services Workshop next week in Washington, DC, with inter-SDO discussion. Not an IETF meeting/interim. Will finally take steps to dismantle IEPREP working group. Don't think HICCUP BOF will be back, at least not soon.

Mark Townsley - looking for at least five new chairs, have a couple of working groups that are rechartering (L2VPN, L3VPN, possible SOFTWIRE).