IESG Narrative Minutes

Narrative Minutes of the IESG Teleconference on 2008-04-10.
Narrative scribe: John Leslie
Corrections from Russ Housley, Dan Romascanu, Michelle Cotton, and Jari Arkko

• 1.2 Bash the Agenda
  no new; Exec Session @ end; IAB may leave during 6.4
  
• 1.3 Approval of the Minutes of the past telechat
  27 March approved; narrative posted 3 April, approved; Spencer will send
• 1.4 Review of Action Items
  Cullen mgmt item- in progress
  Chris sent up- mgmt item to discuss - today
  

2.1.2 Returning Item

• draft-ietf-netlmm-proxymip6-11.txt
  Proxy Mobile IPv6 (Proposed Standard) - 1 of 1 Note: Document Shepherd is Jonne Soininen Token: Jari Arkko
  
  deferred to today
  Ron: already entered a position
  Cullen: no position
  Jari: discusses; new version coming; personal discuss for Dave Thaler review; Pasi may look at secure neighbor discovery issues; Lars... Pasi multiple v6 support being discussed with author; link local issue going away
  Tim: cleared 5 min ago
  Jari: IF types, concept may be confused, two interface same ID, network thinks you moved, MAC adrs, physical interface might operate multiple modes, researching
  Dan: 5 values defined in 805, looks like it fits
  Jari: IF type vs. MAC adrs collision; Dan & Jari to look at registry and rules
  Dave: cleared this morning (5 min ago)
  Jari: Magnus discuss on its way, authors need to help
  Magnus: need more details worked out
  Jari: appropriate way to set MTU; won't block ICMP in own network; followup needed, one author is doing all the work
  Lars: here (just arrived in conference)
  Jari: mostly agree with Lars discuss, except link type; multicast question; IPv6 can have link-local mulitcast; mostly agree with your discuss, except link type
  Lars: wrong to assume dependable delivery
  Jari: will check that; link-level functions s/b minimized
  Lars: need to synchonize time or state
  Jari: agree that needs to be documented; expect revision
• draft-ietf-mip6-hiopt-12.txt
  DHCP Options for Home Information Discovery in MIPv6 (Proposed Standard) - 1 of 2
  Note: Document Shepherd is Basavaraj Patil
  Token: Jari Arkko
  
  Jari: some last-minute things; approved pending my checking Alfred's review
  Russ: I cleared

3.1.1 New WG Submissions

• draft-ietf-enum-experiences-09.txt
  ENUM Implementation Issues and Experiences (Informational) - 1 of 2
  Token: Jon Peterson
  
  Amy: to Info
  Jon: Pasi also 3731... known problem; folks don't understand order vs. preference; API app-vs-enumResolver, NAPTR order often ignored, need to explain this; Pasi language is major change
  Pasi: no intent to change, thought I was reflecting current standard
  Jon: no need for order;
  Pasi: 3 NAPTR record example
  Jon: can have either order or preference; you seem to thing API will return only one
  Pasi: DNS has to give all, API processes them
  Jon: "ignore unless you're going to pick an earlier one"; whole issue is confusing, we understand that implementors don't understand this; pointless to explain it again
  Pasi: note that implementations are broken OK, but don't ask correct implementations to change
  Jon: enum should be distinct from other DDS; certainly enum has right to propose this
  Pasi: agree enum may say MUST have same order
  Jon: what if enum behaves slightly different
  Pasi: NAPTR says this doesn't exist:
  Jon: corner cases prevent effective use; more concerned about 3731bis
  Pasi: spec needs to document at least one correct way to use this
  Jon: anyone else on that issue (silence); in my view, this document doesn't change anything; normative language can be an issue, some should be changed, but not unreasonable to have an Info document be part of a protocol specification, otherwise it's too hard for the authors; harmful to soften all normative language; don't know how to satisfy
  Jon: Scott Bradner as editor
  Dan: what will happen 6-12 months from now, danger of confusion; maybe move appropriate sections to eventual -bis
  Jon: unpredictable; WG consensus needed
  Dan: no place which clarifies; text referent unclear
  Jon: hardly unique to have normative language in Info document; we need to be clear what we expect; came to AD review in different emphasis, wish I could have given them better advice
  Dan: this creates a different protocol from the current spec
  Chris: authors do need to be clear on status; folks who read RFCs not always understand Info vs. Std.; holding this up would be disservice, but need to be sure we clarify which
  Jari: agree important to get this out: issue is clarity, not formal status; could write implementation and/or operational advice
  Jon: -08 applied 5-6 modifiers, too confusing; perhaps in a summary at the end; your issues are reasonable
  Cullen: one item I called out, not updating 3761, mods to syntax for services, needs to be something like an errata or this info might blackhole
  Jon: agree entirely, but it's not a defect of this document
  Chris: section 2.1: suggested text in Jabber; will put in tracker as comment
  Jon: will be revised-ID
• draft-ietf-sipping-sbc-funcs-05.txt Requirements from SIP (Session Initiation Protocol) Session Border Control Deployments (Informational) - 2 of 2 Token: Jon Peterson
  
  Amy: number of discusses
  Jon: Dave, interesting point, tend to say routing is too hard; one issue, packet steering to specific SBC, happens whether we like it or not, even if wrong; is this your issue
  Dave: SBC set to handle tens of thousands of calls; capacity planning, need to dilate tunnels, triggering auto-tunnel, feedback into traffic; is it necessary to document
  Jon: expertise isn't there; don't know who follows this
  Dave: folks involved are at least from companies with right experience
  Jon: intent simply to capture some of the considerations
  Dave: could be very short paragraph, out-of-spec bandwidth considerations
  Jon: lack of interaction is easy to document
  Jon: Magnus "not detailed enough?" Could be more detail, but level of granularity seems adequate
  Magnus: will give you the key points
  Jon: Chris
  Chris: if these things are going to exist, I want to know about middleboxes in order to minimize the damage.
  Jon: SBC is a man-in-the-middle. 3631
  Chris: Integrity checks (sign) will fail
  Jon: treat like man-in-the-middle; you'll detect just like any other man-in-the-middle; SBC builders have no incentive to play nicely; IMO there are better mechanisms that _will_ cooperate; SBCs don't play that way; no fully legitimate use, IMO
  Chris: cleared
  Cullen: not after substantial changes; ridiculous to say you need a SBC to XXX
  Jon: opportunity for SBC builders to tell their side of it.
  Dan: seem to be speaking on behalf of operators; is this good, is this true?
  Cullen: prefer "some operators do this"
  Jon: operators do want "use this low-demand codec instead"
  Jari: easy to resolve with a couple of sentences; moved most of my DISCUSS to COMMENT
  Jon: keep in mind purpose of the document; operators argue media-steering improves things, we could say "not always"
  Jari: fine; just asking note no bad side effects in certain cases
  Pasi: a couple of sentences should satisfy me
  Amy: revised ID needed

1251EDT 5-minute break
1257EDT roll-call who's back
Cullen: need to drop off soon

WG Creation - for IETF Review

• NETCONF Data Modeling Language (netmod) - 1 of 1 Token: Dan Romascanu
  
  Cullen: proposed charter does not seem to be consensus of BOF
  Dan: couple of weeks later, consensus of design team, discussed on list
  Amy: external review next step, charter from Dan, back on April 24

WG Creation - for Approval

• Internationalized Domain Names in Applications (Revised) (idnabis) - 1 of 1 Token: Lisa Dusseault
  
  Amy: any objections
  Lisa: any comments about a co-chair, John Klensin prefers one person responsible, I
  see co-chair as more secretarial; will consult with Vint
  Russ: Are you asking to charter as written or wait for co-chair?
  Lisa: Prefer to charter now, can add co-chair later if desired
  Amy: create as is; not waiting co-chair

WG Rechartering - for Approval

• Multiparty Multimedia Session Control (mmusic) - 1 of 1 Token: Cullen Jennings
  
  Amy: any objections (silence); it is approved

IAB News We can use

• Loa: pasting into Jabber; long backlog of minutes, many folks working on them; IAB same stream, IRTF might be different; discuss reporting of ??; very good Exec Dir, progress; mtg Thurs nite before retreat, I can't attend
  Dave: Any progress on the RADir document?
  Olaf: email march 25 on routing problem statement, pasting into jabber
  Dave: agree, no response

6.2 Approval of expert team for IANA port number allocations (Lars Eggert)

• Lars: two issues: experts and NDA; a few experts have confirmed, one 90%, others not confirmed; I recommend we approve three and come back with more; Alison, Ted, Joe, others mentioned
  Lars: NDA option expiring, we can't honor an NDA if asked for now that ADs and Designated Experts are reviewing the requests
  Russ: how do you document this.
  Lars: tell IANA not to approve the option subject to NDA
  Michelle: application form will be revised to avoid items folks object to; should be fine for IESG to instruct us that way; IANA has one application expected but not submitted that might request NDA
  Lars: Michelle to send a draft of language that I can send to Secretariat
  Lars: approval of three (of) members; consensus

6.3 Discuss next steps on fluffy errata draft (Cullen Jennings)

• Cullen: things I should put back; two states vs. three; does this become RFC or web page
  Russ: resolve 2 vs 3; ask community for comments; on agenda to approve in e.g. 2 weeks
  ??: this affects what RFC editor must do
  Russ: if we decide, RFC-editor will work to set it up; no problem if others choose to use less states; time to decide 2-vs-3
  Cullen: don't like having to say "yes or no"; but we could redefine "No"
  Russ: we need to flag errata which are serious misunderstandings or downright wrong; three states better (consensus)
  Cullen: will finalize text, would like co-author
  Lisa: suggest third state title "tabled"
  Olaf: Cultural difference: "tabled" means different things
  Russ: Cullen will pick the word; send it to me; I'll distribute; we'll send for community comments; agenda item next telechat

6.5 Confirm results of IETF LC on draft-irtf-nmrg-snmp-measure-04.txt (Dan Romascanu)

• Dan: create URI, need IETF-consensus, LastCall without substantive comments; no objections; record in minutes as IESG approved

New Item: Chris added spam policy for IETF lists

• Chris: encourage whitelisting copied from previous; TMDA makes it obvious that policy is out of date; question about roles: who should be added to mailing-list
  Russ: thought it said lists <iesg@ietf.org> and <iab@iab.org>, not individuals
  Chris: tend to prefer keeping it simple Jari: remove request for whitelist of IESG and IAB members
  Chris: second item is deliberately vague: avoid bleeding edge but don't keep outdated practices; Cullen issue how to determine
  Cullen: current implementation is check the archive
  Chris: don't want to remove MUST, may be cases where something doesn't get into the archives; hopefully we'll get better; deprecate previous policy, but not totally eliminate
  Russ: we need versioning! ;^)
  Chris: suggest keep old statement, adding note that it's depretated
  Russ: fine approach
  Chris: send as IESG statement (no objections)
  Russ: IESG statment approved, will be posted shorut

7. Agenda Working Group News

• Russ: Two IPR WG documents completed IETF Last Call
  Jon: interim 2nd week June; two WG, resisting others, likely Dallas
  Tim: Pasi and I filled WGC/MSEC and EMU WG Chair openings, working on remaining two openings
  Magnus: replacing one WGC...

6.4 RFC Editor intends to publish draft-saleem-msml-05.txt (Russ Housley)

• IAB left
  Sandy: spoke to Bob; will talk to him re delay
  Russ: like to get WG docs out first
  Jon: two docs expected July/August
  ??: some author changes in progress
  Russ: this document will be the spec?
  Michelle: awaiting response from Ned
  Russ: don't want to escalate without Bob input
  Sandy: will talk to Bob today

6.1 ISOC BoT Candidate Confirmation (Executive Session) (Russ Housley)

1353 EDT Scribe left the teleconference