IAB E-Impact Workshop Session 4: Next Steps 5:52 am - 7:33 am Monday, December 12, 2022 | (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Canada) Cedric Westphal heb Hosein Badran Maya Richman Eve Schooler Jari Arkko Safiqul Dom Robinson Greening of Streaming John Preuß Mattsson Michael Welzl Lars Eggert Bruce Nordman2 Marisol Palmero Amador Qin Wu Stefano Salsano Tirumaleswar Reddy Eric Voit Martin Flack Henk Birkholz he/him Nina Lövehagen Ali Rezaki Cindy Morgan Snezana Mitrovic Eric Vyncke Rob Wilton Selome Chiara Lombardo - CNIT Marisol Palmero Amador DX80 Louis Navarre Jiankang Yao Beatrice Siccardi Fieke Colin Perkins Pascal Thubert Toerless Eckert Jan Lindblad Bruce Vesna Manojlovic Esther Roure Vila Carsten Bormann Daniel Schien Greg Mirsky Romain Jacob Mohamed Boucadair Mike Mattera Eric Vyncke Desk Pro Brendan Moran Carlos Pignataro Chris Adams Wim Vanderbauwhede Per Andersson Gonzalo Salgueiro Suresh Krishnan Jukka Manner Alex Clemm Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson WEBVTT 1 Jari Arkko 00:11:33.819 --> 00:11:41.164 This is the last of the main sessions we can talk about the future developments and next steps. 2 Jari Arkko 00:11:42.454 --> 00:12:02.434 And, um, there's some ground rules that I, I think you've seen by now so I don't plan to repeating them, but please continue to keep them in mind you doing very well. And everybody's been explaining very carefully. Uh, I think it's been very understandable to everybody. So, that's that's great despite our backgrounds. 3 Jari Arkko 00:12:03.935 --> 00:12:23.825 And, uh, goals for today, um, there's a little bit of a look back at the previous sessions and then we'll talk about potential future developments, the different areas we'll talk about conclusions and next steps, that's a discussion with then also talk about that workshop next steps more concretely. 4 Jari Arkko 00:12:25.114 --> 00:12:45.724 Rfc coming out on, on each of the workshops that will do that again, but not only that we'll need to discuss, um, or we continue and, uh, as usual, uh, uh, slides from the beginning are useful reminder on what can we do and what are the potential classes of controls. 5 Jari Arkko 00:12:46.385 --> 00:12:52.565 What we know, or don't know, what can we do in terms of improvements and what might be the next steps. 6 Jari Arkko 00:12:54.874 --> 00:13:15.334 And, uh, today's agenda, so indeed, there's some summaries by myself, uh, calling them eve on the 3 different sessions we've had so far. Um, we have 5 talks, I think, on potential future development areas, um, on cognitive networking. 7 Jari Arkko 00:13:15.574 --> 00:13:23.794 Mobile app works, uh, what we should not be doing. It's an interesting item always. And then, uh, and I. 8 Jari Arkko 00:13:23.914 --> 00:13:44.944 Process and, uh, I'm gonna try and ask you guys to be brief and to the point, uh, we don't have a huge amount of time, um, given the number of, um, talks on the agenda. Uh, if you want to actually leave some time for discussion. So, he takes too much time I might actually try and cut you off. Then we'll have some discussion mostly about. 9 Jari Arkko 00:13:45.244 --> 00:13:58.864 What what is the conclusion or what should we be doing concretely? And, uh, and then I'm gonna reserve it just a little bit of time at the end to talk about the next steps work supplies, um, calling anything to add. 10 Colin Perkins 00:14:01.294 --> 00:14:06.844 Uh, no, I don't think I have anything to add. I think that's a good summary of, uh, the plan is, thank you. 11 Jari Arkko 00:14:08.194 --> 00:14:11.794 Yeah, and, um, any, any agenda bash otherwise. 12 Jari Arkko 00:14:16.175 --> 00:14:35.705 Okay, I guess not. So, we'll, we'll keep going. So, um, 1st, let's, I will actually describe, um, a brief summary of session 1, which was, I thought, really, really interesting, because we had tons of, um, yeah, basically different viewpoints. I think at least for me, some of that was was really. 13 Jari Arkko 00:14:35.709 --> 00:14:56.854 So, it was very refreshing. Um, but I didn't spend a little bit of time beforehand, try and figure out like, you know, if we look at anything in this space, what can we learn from it? And, like, what other things I should have on my slides, or or the notepad, you came up with, like, this template. 14 Jari Arkko 00:14:56.884 --> 00:15:17.944 Since useful tools, actions that we can actually take and goals that we should have and, and the really interesting stuff, all sorts of the some research problems. That clearly are not things that we can engineering wise do today. But what would be fun if they, they resolved and we could topics for people's students to go and do. 15 Jari Arkko 00:15:18.010 --> 00:15:19.385 Thesis or something. 16 Jari Arkko 00:15:20.974 --> 00:15:41.734 The paper, uh, measurement, so, for session 1, I tried to fill this in. Um, and there's plenty of things. Of course, I'm not going to go through this in detail, but, you know, the, the main feeling is that this is so much bigger than our tech obviously. Of course. But, you know, maybe. 17 Jari Arkko 00:15:42.305 --> 00:16:03.035 For all us, maybe for me in particular, it wasn't like, necessarily obvious before this workshop, but that's that's the case. And, uh, that influences all parts of society and there's a bunch of non technical things, uh, also involved business, summarize them 3rd part inequality uh, externalize. 18 Jari Arkko 00:16:03.694 --> 00:16:24.244 Uh, just this or lack there off and so on. Um, so that that's a good thing to keep in mind. Um, so this is really broad and also, um, I talked a little bit about the improvements how they come in different forms and, um, we should keep that in mind not to get stuck on like, the thing that I control that are gonna improve and so, everything with. 19 Jari Arkko 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.364 That's not the case. Probably we need multiple things. 20 Jari Arkko 00:16:28.510 --> 00:16:49.655 And then useful tools, and this is like, a slightly different from maybe like, if we look at some of the other assessments, the useful tools, I can help you like this tech. But but here is like software things like solidarity and awareness and sufficiency of, you know, what, what we, um, what we have. 21 Jari Arkko 00:16:49.684 --> 00:17:10.534 Um, or we should be happy with what we have, and how we should make that actually left and and serve our needs rather than just chase the numbers. Good, good things to think about. Um, and also, um, not waiting for the perfect solution. That that's always bad for almost anything and particularly through of this. 22 Jari Arkko 00:17:11.104 --> 00:17:31.354 Things we can do on the right side. I have some goals and 1 of them is continuous improvement. So that's a pair. Uh, of course, there's also some more concrete, hard things like this, you know, user, renewable energy in, in the systems that we run. And, uh, and also. 23 Jari Arkko 00:17:32.014 --> 00:17:52.984 We've talked about actions that we should take, I think, from session 1, in particular, it was pretty clear that since we're not alone in this, we should perhaps be connected somehow and not not to work in isolation, but be aware of what's happening elsewhere. And what the demands are possibilities. 24 Jari Arkko 00:17:53.165 --> 00:18:14.195 Working together and so on, and then the goals and some continuous improvement also, but also I'm a little bit moving away from this chasing bigger numbers. Or if I put it bigger and more bloated, the bit pages every year, to actually increase usefulness of whatever we do with to, to, or. 25 Jari Arkko 00:18:14.260 --> 00:18:30.095 Internet usefulness to me, and to the society at large and also declining emissions. I think that's been fairly clear that there's some, some demand for reduction and not just staying where we are. 26 Jari Arkko 00:18:32.854 --> 00:18:53.074 But, at the same time, not compromising on this usefulness and then bunch of things that we could do research on. Um, 1 thing that was mentioned was effects beyond energy. That energy of course, very high profile. But that's not the only thing is like, really serious effects from some of the raw material uses and so on. So. 27 Jari Arkko 00:18:54.485 --> 00:19:02.525 We do need to think about that and that probably needs more research and or maybe that's available somewhere. But I'm not aware of, um. 28 Jari Arkko 00:19:04.115 --> 00:19:24.335 It it struck me as, um, some of this carbon awareness stuff, uh, might benefit from thinking about, like, how can you do that in a sort of a multi value and, um, you know, uh, variable trustworthiness a world where you need to learn something from the other side of the planet, but you don't know if you can trust it. How do we do that? 29 Jari Arkko 00:19:25.145 --> 00:19:45.905 This case might be useful thing to think about, uh, and also business model impacts. Don't have a lot of data on that. I think, um, for instance, what's the cost of advertising? Um, yeah. Um, anybody else wanna add something or take away or dispute. 30 Jari Arkko 00:19:45.934 --> 00:19:47.164 Something that's on the slide. 31 Jari Arkko 00:20:02.165 --> 00:20:12.065 Yeah, I don't see anybody it's something, but the microphone so, um, yeah, maybe maybe that's it for this summary. And then Colleen, perhaps you take over and discuss the next system. 32 Carlos Pignataro 00:20:12.125 --> 00:20:22.445 Yeti 1, uh, this is Carlos 11. very quick. Uh, way in which I interpret, uh, in assembly. Early sessions is that is 2. 33 Carlos Pignataro 00:20:22.684 --> 00:20:43.504 Really number 1 is that there's no 1 size fits all there's no single silver bullet for this and, uh, you know, problem understanding as well. A solution is to come in a lot of different, uh, domains dimensions area that's number 1 and, uh, either number 2. I feel that there's also. 34 Carlos Pignataro 00:20:43.864 --> 00:20:56.734 Uh, you know, we all bring just because this is multidisciplinary, we bring our preconceptions on, uh, you know, what is the high order bits and I think. 35 Carlos Pignataro 00:20:57.994 --> 00:21:18.964 Going back to your last point on research, what is really the impact of actually making change, uh, in particular areas we all go quickly to energy and to carbon. And, uh, and, uh, there's actually immense amount of data. Um, is not the same for a core. 36 Carlos Pignataro 00:21:19.024 --> 00:21:39.184 Rather than for a mobile endpoint, uh, you know, even if it is carbon contribution during the overall life cycle. Uh, so so I feel that understanding is also, you know, gonna benefit how inserts into this into these bigger, uh, problems. 37 Carlos Pignataro 00:21:40.175 --> 00:21:41.735 Contribute to the solutions. 38 Jari Arkko 00:21:43.805 --> 00:21:44.735 Good points. Thank you. 39 Jari Arkko 00:21:51.484 --> 00:21:52.384 All right Colin. 40 Colin Perkins 00:21:53.104 --> 00:21:53.464 Chris. 41 Jari Arkko 00:21:53.614 --> 00:21:56.314 Oh, yeah, sorry. 42 Chris Adams 00:21:58.804 --> 00:22:19.534 Thanks thanks. There was 1 thing that, uh, I kind of took away from when I was looking through this 1 thing that, uh, was possibly some research that he's doing is to get an idea of, let's say that you were to provide some more efficient technology for this, either through the form of protocols at different hardware I feel like if we. 43 Chris Adams 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:40.744 Have a particular trajectory that we need to be on that has been outlined by the and other groups, like, having emissions by 2030, then it kind of suggest the need for some scenarios and some idea of how quickly replacements of existing inefficient stuff might need to be necessary or what assumptions we might make about how quick. 44 Chris Adams 00:22:40.774 --> 00:23:01.714 We think that the energy itself will be becoming less harmful in terms of carbon emissions for this. Because if you don't have any, if you don't have any assumptions here, it's going to be quite difficult to work against the thing that might be worth. Actually, I was really thinking about, is that other industries you have to decarbonised, they've basically said we're going to try and. 45 Chris Adams 00:23:01.954 --> 00:23:23.044 By this date, we think it's going to cost this much and that that works out to be a rough idea of how much investment maybe may be required so for context, uh, between now and 2050, the aviation industry has said it's going to cost this many 1Trillion dollars we reckon to replace all the stock and switch to green abbreviation and that works out to be a figure of like a 100. 46 Chris Adams 00:23:23.074 --> 00:23:44.194 28Billion U. S. dollars year on year between now and 2050, if you have some numbers like that, then at least it allows folks to actually take a feed into some of the existing discussions. That's the kind of the top, 28, and the top 29th where people say, well, we need this much to actually stay on track for what the science has told us to be doing. And I think this is something that would. 47 Chris Adams 00:23:44.224 --> 00:23:57.634 Be really, really helpful when speaking to both policy makers, but also private SEC to say, well, we need to raise this money to make this possible. Even if we're just going to focus on training people to use the existing infrastructure much more efficiently. 48 Jari Arkko 00:23:59.464 --> 00:24:05.224 A really good point. Uh, I agree that that's that's a useful thing to have. And and also that we don't have. 49 Jari Arkko 00:24:05.434 --> 00:24:09.484 Today, I'm trying to add these things as as, as we hear them. 50 Jari Arkko 00:24:12.544 --> 00:24:13.084 Excellent. 51 Jari Arkko 00:24:20.885 --> 00:24:23.255 Yeah, and now maybe calling. Mm. Hmm. 52 Colin Perkins 00:24:24.635 --> 00:24:28.715 Uh, yes do you have my slight or do you want me to share it? 53 Jari Arkko 00:24:29.195 --> 00:24:30.185 Maybe you sir. 54 Colin Perkins 00:24:32.585 --> 00:24:33.575 Stop sharing. 55 Jari Arkko 00:24:34.565 --> 00:24:34.955 Yeah. 56 Colin Perkins 00:24:49.059 --> 00:24:51.304 All right is that working? Can people see my slate. 57 Hosein Badran 00:24:53.254 --> 00:24:54.244 Yes, yes, we can. 58 Colin Perkins 00:24:55.294 --> 00:25:10.054 Okay, so, uh, I can't see the hands being raised so if you have questions, please do jump in. Um, so so, session 2 was very much about, uh, what we know and that there were free talks, uh, initially by, uh, then Daniel. 59 Colin Perkins 00:25:10.384 --> 00:25:31.234 And then jen's, um, um, Michael's talked focused on what we know about the energy usage and what information exists about that usage. Um, it's pretty clear that there have been, um, a bunch of studies conducted, which are at best, uh, misleading. 60 Colin Perkins 00:25:31.745 --> 00:25:45.485 Some of them are perhaps outright misinformation, and there's been many articles that are getting a lot of interest, uh, being being widely spread that are promoting misleading estimates of the energy usage of the network. 61 Colin Perkins 00:25:46.954 --> 00:26:07.984 Um, I think WH, what I took away from Michael's team was that there will be benefits in both, um, getting accurate measurements. And also in developing a communication strategy. Um, some way of ensuring that the information which we have some confidence in is is, uh, disseminated to perhaps train Council. Some of the, the more misleading information that's out there. 62 Colin Perkins 00:26:10.355 --> 00:26:29.135 Uh, the 2nd, topic was from Dan, um, who just discussed how to estimate the energy usage in the carbon footprint of the networks. Um, he spoke about the different factors influencing the energy usage. Um, some discussion about how energy proportionality is, uh, pretty poor in the networks. Um, how the, the. 63 Colin Perkins 00:26:29.195 --> 00:26:50.285 Usage doesn't necessarily correspond to the, the amount of traffic, um, and, um, about some of the, the limited impact of, um, um, marginal emissions and so on, and, um, carbon intensity of the energy supply and its impact. So, uh, some of the interesting points to me, if this. 64 Colin Perkins 00:26:50.319 --> 00:27:11.284 Discussion were about the, the upgrade cycle, uh, the potential for P. uh, I think mentioned there's peak shaving trying to shift or defer some of the traffic, uh, to to avoid the peak times to avoid, um, the the usage getting to the point where upgrades can be needed. Uh, so at least delay the, the need to upgrade the infrastructure to switch to a higher capacity. 65 Colin Perkins 00:27:11.854 --> 00:27:32.314 Higher power infrastructure and then the final talk was jen's talking about some of the measurement data. Um, and I think that this 1 was interesting and, uh, perhaps a little bit controversial in the group. Uh, his data seemed to show that while that the amount of data being used is growing rapidly. Um. 66 Colin Perkins 00:27:32.619 --> 00:27:42.724 Consumption of data centers themselves has been close to flat and the energy consumption of the networks is growing pretty slowly in comparison to the rate is being used. 67 Colin Perkins 00:27:44.914 --> 00:27:50.254 Um, most of the discussion in the session was around the, these leads and measurements, um. 68 Colin Perkins 00:27:50.975 --> 00:28:11.975 A bunch of concern, uh, that, um, while I'm flat to slow group is better than we had, perhaps expected, uh, flexible group and energy usage experts better than we'd expected. Um, the current emissions are still too high. And there's also some concern that, um, we, we don't necessarily understand why the consumption is flat and. 69 Colin Perkins 00:28:12.304 --> 00:28:26.614 What are the engineering efforts, which are causing it to stay that way? Um, and how to accelerate those engineering efforts to beat the curve. So, rather than having a flat or slowly growing energy consumption have declining energy consumption over time. 70 Colin Perkins 00:28:27.635 --> 00:28:31.715 Uh, and it's not clear what headroom we have, and how we can, uh, you know. 71 Colin Perkins 00:28:33.364 --> 00:28:54.394 Move on to sort of beat the curve for rather than just keeping up with the traffic. Uh, and there's some discussion at the end about, um, what we don't know, and they seem to relate to, um, breaking down the energy use, um, by different applications, different parts of the network, et cetera. Um, rather than just the overall aggregate measures. So, we can start to understand. 72 Colin Perkins 00:28:54.544 --> 00:29:02.074 Parts of the system we need to optimize to reduce the, the usage and I think that's that's my summary of session 2. 73 Colin Perkins 00:29:11.074 --> 00:29:13.354 You want to have anything else to add on this session. 74 Colin Perkins 00:29:27.064 --> 00:29:32.014 Okay, I don't see any questions. 75 Eve Schooler 00:29:37.625 --> 00:29:38.255 Share. 76 Jari Arkko 00:29:39.155 --> 00:29:39.965 Go ahead. 77 Colin Perkins 00:29:40.055 --> 00:29:40.805 Yep, go ahead. 78 Eve Schooler 00:29:41.225 --> 00:29:41.585 Huh. 79 Eve Schooler 00:29:47.074 --> 00:29:57.544 Okay, so session 3 was yesterday and, um, we, oh, maybe let me go into full screen mode. 80 Eve Schooler 00:30:01.174 --> 00:30:20.314 We had 5 terrific talks and some great conversation. The 1st, of which, um, centered around the metrics. Um, Alex gave an incredibly thorough assessment of the metrics needed. Um, and then we had, uh, Suresh giving some. 81 Eve Schooler 00:30:20.764 --> 00:30:41.524 Thoughts on solutions and trade offs with Russ, following that by, including a routing very detailed routing perspective. Louise spoke to us about the prospects for multicast. Brendan spoke about data formats and, um, I felt. 82 Eve Schooler 00:30:41.559 --> 00:31:02.704 There were many takeaways in the discussions, just a few of which I've highlighted here. Um, as I stated, I thought that Alex, um, Alex has talked to the great job to sort of categorize the metrics needed for devices. Paths flows in the overall network and point. 83 Eve Schooler 00:31:02.734 --> 00:31:23.854 To some concrete next steps that are available to us to get started, like, Yang models and protocol extensions. Um, the 2nd, talk was interesting because it very clearly pointed out to us that while we focus on scopes, 1 and 2, that scoped. 84 Eve Schooler 00:31:23.860 --> 00:31:44.975 Which is the usage of all the equipment that many of our companies produce that far eclipses the totals and the sum of the totals of scopes 1 and 2, we should also consider some inclusion of what's being what's emergent as a scope for, which is kind of. 85 Eve Schooler 00:31:45.009 --> 00:32:06.154 A hand print effect, which is what might be the savings of using technology towards others footprints. Um, so that was kind of an interesting perspective. I thought and another point that was made was around how there's so many sustainability. 86 Eve Schooler 00:32:06.159 --> 00:32:27.304 The best practices that perhaps we should begin to collect them into a document. There's no, you know, we should start doing that sort of straight away when we got to the presentation about about routing. What was interesting was, you know, Russ pointing out to. 87 Eve Schooler 00:32:27.334 --> 00:32:48.454 That merging, it's really important for us to merge multiple metrics into 1 because when we start to do these joint optimizations it's a well known NP complete problem to have multiple metrics. And so the convergence into 1 metric is something we're going to have to take strategic. 88 Eve Schooler 00:32:48.484 --> 00:33:03.274 It was also interesting to hear from the control plane perspective. The levers we have to either reduce to remove redundant links or remove equipment. 89 Eve Schooler 00:33:05.705 --> 00:33:06.785 Is there a question. 90 Eve Schooler 00:33:09.545 --> 00:33:28.775 Okay, um, anyway, that we have several levers for reducing power usage and all of which can be done in a manner that is time variant, which was a topic that came up multiple times yesterday. And, um, in previous sessions, um, around, you know, if we know beforehand. 91 Eve Schooler 00:33:30.004 --> 00:33:50.434 That links will come and go that we can schedule uh, we can have a more robust routing algorithm, uh, that can schedule, um, its knowledge to match the coming and going of predictable behaviors about, like, these links. Um, it was interesting to get an update on. 92 Eve Schooler 00:33:50.974 --> 00:34:11.644 Multicast that it's perhaps time to reconsider its usage because in the past, we have focused on the simplicity of the algorithm, rather than the efficiencies of the algorithms and that many of the problems that were considered old challenges have new solutions. 93 Eve Schooler 00:34:11.674 --> 00:34:32.104 Most importantly, creating a stateless multicast. So router state was a problem in the past for the wide area networks and also that the performance of implementing multitasking user space is now competitive. 94 Eve Schooler 00:34:32.824 --> 00:34:53.944 Or is at least reasonable enough, then, as compared to say, being required to do this in kernel space. And I also found it very instructive that in multiple of the talks yesterday, there was the emphasis though, we should be reusing techniques that we have. 95 Eve Schooler 00:34:53.975 --> 00:35:15.095 Experience with from these more constrained contests, constrained networking context as well as most importantly, the wireless context where we do have to already consider low power and that we should remember that at the very edges of our topology are wireless. 96 Eve Schooler 00:35:15.754 --> 00:35:35.944 It was fascinating also to hear about data formats who knew that, that there's typically a 30% energy reduction when using binary over text. It was good to see the quantification, you know, intuitively. You would assume that but it was good to see a number. 97 Eve Schooler 00:35:36.724 --> 00:35:57.124 Uh, also appreciated that we heard, you know, we were encouraged to stop thinking of the network as an infinite resource, and therefore, along with that stop ignoring data formats. Because even if you have these small reductions in the aggregate, they add up and the example was given that in contrast to video, which we know is the. 98 Eve Schooler 00:35:57.454 --> 00:36:18.544 Main type of traffic on the network and accounts for a large percentage. Maybe 90% plus of traffic on the network. We still, we sent emails all the time and the what? Ifs of if we had a Super representation of mine for all those mind encoded emails that we're sending every day. Um, many times. 99 Eve Schooler 00:36:19.354 --> 00:36:39.634 Uh, and, uh, there was also some in the discussion at the very end of the presentations concession that we recognize that at least the current state of monitoring is not very efficient in and of itself. Um, but we've got to start somewhere and that. 100 Eve Schooler 00:36:39.700 --> 00:37:00.365 We, you know, it's important for us to understand approximately where energy is consumed to understand where the high impact places for us to focus our attention, including a monitoring itself. Eventually those are some of my takeaways, but I would welcome others to jump in and contribute their impressions. 101 Eve Schooler 00:37:03.304 --> 00:37:08.674 And I, of course, cannot see the people's hands being raised. So please help me. I. 102 Eve Schooler 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:11.374 Speaking out. 103 Jari Arkko 00:37:16.774 --> 00:37:34.684 I don't see any raised hands either. I just had a 1 comment myself, that, that, uh, that the, um, TVR type of time varying. Um, actually in my mind, at least it's sort of a part of a bigger thing or. 104 Jari Arkko 00:37:34.714 --> 00:37:55.834 It's a related thing, that is about ability to handle things on a particular time and then sleep at other times. And that's not just the routing thing. It's, it's sort of goes across implementations and technologies and and and protocols and design of link layers and details of link players. 105 Jari Arkko 00:37:55.864 --> 00:38:14.884 And so on so, in, uh, for for instance, there's some, some details that lead to very different power users. Um, some savings can be done. If I see that. We're not possible in 14 because of these things. Um, maybe, that's the thing. That could be also not that. 106 Eve Schooler 00:38:15.994 --> 00:38:16.354 Okay. 107 Colin Perkins 00:38:23.045 --> 00:38:23.615 Hello. 108 Vesna Manojlovic 00:38:23.855 --> 00:38:40.235 I was just curious. Um, I liked what I heard, uh, when you said that, uh, documenting best current practices in sustainability is was 1 of the conclusions, but I didn't see it on your slide. Did I miss it or? So. 109 Eve Schooler 00:38:40.235 --> 00:38:42.155 Was there here let me let me. 110 Eve Schooler 00:38:48.334 --> 00:38:49.414 Hmm. 111 Eve Schooler 00:38:54.725 --> 00:39:04.295 Yeah, um, what I was saying was here, um, the sustainability considerations should be put into a document. 112 Vesna Manojlovic 00:39:04.535 --> 00:39:09.035 Oh, yes, okay. Volunteers to help out to that. Uh, I can help. 113 Eve Schooler 00:39:09.245 --> 00:39:10.295 Absolutely. 114 Suresh Krishnan 00:39:10.924 --> 00:39:30.214 So, um, I think, uh, E, like, you know, if you're talking to my like, about my talk, right in this 1, right? So, at some point, I was like, not just to do the, um, the best practices, but also talk about the trade offs. Right? I think that was like, you know, 1 thing I kind of wanted to add because there might be other things that for people to consider. So, like, not just say, hey, this is good. 115 Eve Schooler 00:39:30.454 --> 00:39:31.144 And. 116 Suresh Krishnan 00:39:31.294 --> 00:39:31.714 This is. 117 Suresh Krishnan 00:39:31.744 --> 00:39:52.804 Do you need to kind of, um, I would say, balance it against, right? So, I, I think a lot of the things we saw, um, have some kind of trade offs, it's not like, always like a, um, green thing is event. Always. Right? So, I think that's something I kind of wanted to emphasize a little bit on, but I think if, like, summarize it extremely well, right? Like, and I would love to have some help on that. If. 118 Suresh Krishnan 00:39:53.195 --> 00:39:56.045 Um, people want to help, like, out certainly help writing something. 119 Eve Schooler 00:39:57.275 --> 00:40:07.265 Yeah, and in fact, I think that comment about sustainability considerations was something that you said later in the session, but it seemed to weave into your talk as well. 120 Suresh Krishnan 00:40:07.505 --> 00:40:07.925 Yeah. 121 Eve Schooler 00:40:07.925 --> 00:40:08.675 Just put it there. 122 Eve Schooler 00:40:10.534 --> 00:40:13.144 But it was made, it was a comment that you made and underscore. 123 Suresh Krishnan 00:40:14.164 --> 00:40:14.884 Thanks, thank you. 124 Jari Arkko 00:40:18.424 --> 00:40:21.754 Perhaps we move forward. Did you also want to talk about. 125 Eve Schooler 00:40:23.915 --> 00:40:45.035 Yes, and I will say that, you know, I, I tried my best to put it all on 1 slide as requested and I'll try not to linger on the things that we have stated a lot. But, um, suffice to say, you know, there was lots of discussion on the weather. 126 Eve Schooler 00:40:45.039 --> 00:41:05.374 Energy usage should be increasing remaining the same or being reduced and I wanted to go back to sort of the urgency of some of the organizations like the U. N. the inner governmental panel on climate change, um, world, uh, the resources Institute. 127 Eve Schooler 00:41:06.274 --> 00:41:27.334 You know, when you look at the 6th assessment, that came out over the last year, it makes it very clear. We're sort of a code red. You know, we, all of the advice is, you know, this is the decade where we need to make a difference. Um, and although there are these, um. 128 Eve Schooler 00:41:27.339 --> 00:41:48.484 Calls to say, you know, 50% reduction by 2030. um, invest is more, um, uh, even quicker reductions by 10%, per year. Um, these are recommendations, but everything points to that we need to front load this decade. So, we should be assertive and aggressive and remember the urgency of. 129 Eve Schooler 00:41:48.490 --> 00:42:09.605 This task, so that's what I want to say there amidst all of the emails that are flowing about that, um, for carbon wear networking, we, we want to take all of these good metrics that we already have around performance of our of the Internet of of networks. 130 Eve Schooler 00:42:09.640 --> 00:42:30.785 Specifically, and we want to augment them and in particular we gravitate to energy because it feels like it's in our wheelhouse. It's, you know, it's kind of next of kin for performance metrics that we typically focused on. At least for the core network. We know that in the wireless realm, you know, it's very much front and center, but let's augment them with. 131 Eve Schooler 00:42:30.789 --> 00:42:51.934 More information about carbon and more environmental metrics and 1 of the phrases that my colleague and Co, author Don, as often said was, we cannot energy efficiency our way to net 0, greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, which is also 1 of the recommendations, which some have said, you know, that's very, very. 132 Eve Schooler 00:42:51.964 --> 00:43:13.084 Late in the game, but even so we can't we need to have the tandem task that we need to be looking at not just energy reductions, but carbon reductions and other environmental impact reductions. So, this is, of course, just focusing on the carbon part of it. But we the 1st task. 133 Eve Schooler 00:43:13.114 --> 00:43:34.234 Need to do is to deliver on telemetry extensions so that we can assess the pain points that are happening. We need to make those the telemetry real time and we need to quantify maybe as we go along. I mean, we want to understand what we're using and also what we're how we're reducing and this has to happen. 134 Eve Schooler 00:43:34.295 --> 00:43:55.145 At the platform level, the component level, it's not sufficient to just be doing this for, um, after all. Uh, we really want to help out applications. So we need to on a thread by thread basis. Understand, um, what is our, what is the impact of applications and that really was the thrust of this workshop, or at least the title for this workshop. 135 Eve Schooler 00:43:55.415 --> 00:44:16.265 Is the Internet applications and services so we need to get to that level of specificity and we also need to consider and track secondary effects, like cooling and so forth in monitoring electricity consumed and carbon intensity, which I both I've put them both underneath the umbrella of carbon intelligence. 136 Eve Schooler 00:44:16.654 --> 00:44:37.684 Um, we need to we want to monitor and track them at the end points, the sources and destinations, but also we want to leverage in network telemetry to understand the hub. I hop assessment as well. And we know that there that all of our constituents who happened to be. 137 Eve Schooler 00:44:37.714 --> 00:44:58.834 Like, the developers, the users, the stakeholders, the operators, everyone wants tools that are going to help with accurate measurements. And we know that, for example, not only are we, you know, there's some shortcomings in retrieving real time information, but also even the, we need to find. 138 Eve Schooler 00:44:58.864 --> 00:45:19.984 Green carbon intensity information, a consistency around the frequency, the regions within, which we can gather carbon intensity information, even the completeness around the globe for that kind of information and we want tools that not only help us measure, but also help us model. 139 Eve Schooler 00:45:20.015 --> 00:45:41.135 We're not always going to be able to get those measurements so we're going to have to estimate them and even in cases predict them and so it's somewhat of a sorrowful state that we find some of our tools like trace route, which used to help us to understand how by how accounting of other kinds of metrics. 140 Eve Schooler 00:45:41.165 --> 00:46:02.285 It'd be great to have a tool that allowed us out of band to look at the network and have some observe ability of it with regards to carbon, both energy and carbon. And, uh, in the earlier talk on, um, in the 1st session, we did outline more about, you know, the end goal is. 141 Eve Schooler 00:46:02.289 --> 00:46:23.404 Many different facets, kind of a toolkit of carbon awareness throughout the stack and 1 of the cultural, uh, I guess alignment the cultural alignment that we have with the, is that we have many working groups in, which we could probably be doing some of this work both at the routing. 142 Eve Schooler 00:46:23.464 --> 00:46:44.584 Transport levels for traffic engineering and so forth. But again, I want to go back to the fact that we need to sort of accelerate our efforts, accelerate deployment and to do that. We really need to have some rigorous testing and certification potentially. So that we can attest to the measurements that we get, or even the test to the approximations that we can account for. 143 Eve Schooler 00:46:44.824 --> 00:47:05.734 And, and understand how how we audited the network, um, and, uh, we need to be able to scale this up. I worry that culturally we don't have the apparatus in place. Certainly, not in the for things like, um, sort of certification or validation to the degree of record that we might need. 144 Eve Schooler 00:47:05.765 --> 00:47:26.885 And so that's an open for us to consider who might be our partners, which is exactly what I say in this last point, which is, it's become very clear in all of the discussions that we need to be collaborating across, sort of all corners of the Internet. And those who have. 145 Eve Schooler 00:47:26.890 --> 00:47:48.035 Stake in it and especially those who are working hard in other comms standards organizations. Uh, we've heard about the, um, we, uh, we have heard about, um, you know, like there there are other organizations in the mobile space. I suspect we'll hear about some of them. There was a great report that. 146 Eve Schooler 00:47:48.064 --> 00:48:09.094 Came out this week from the about commitments in the mobile space so we need to be partnering to make sure that we have. And I think it was vanilla who suggested we needed a gap analysis. Other thing we need best practices and even shared terminology. So, we're speaking the same language. 147 Eve Schooler 00:48:09.454 --> 00:48:30.154 Um, I feel, I'd be remiss if I didn't underscore that we really need to understand the socio technical implications, because we want to effect change, but we want to affect the right kind of change, which, in turn are going to affect the policies that are created by governments, and then also we want the technology we create to be adopted and so we need to understand. 148 Eve Schooler 00:48:30.454 --> 00:48:34.084 What motivates people to care and to adopt. 149 Jari Arkko 00:48:34.114 --> 00:48:36.514 Technologies we may need to move on. 150 Eve Schooler 00:48:36.844 --> 00:48:51.484 And so my last point then is just and and this is really important. I feel like there's a follow up conversation. We had here, maybe another workshop around the coming together of the Internet and the electric grid. We, we. 151 Eve Schooler 00:48:51.515 --> 00:49:12.635 We have to understand it. Um, there was an interesting paper I would recommend reading that Bruce submitted about how could we influence the re, architecture of this electric grid? Um, drawing upon what we know from the Internet, um, understanding, pricing, understanding, business models um, because. 152 Eve Schooler 00:49:12.665 --> 00:49:33.785 For all the electric grid is going to have to supply 4 times as much electricity as it's producing now, in order to make, even the transition, just to the electrification of transportation. And, as we know that's going to imply massive disruption to the infrastructure. And there's this opportunity to. 153 Eve Schooler 00:49:33.814 --> 00:49:39.424 Effect change there and to be involved there. So there you have. Thank you. 154 Jari Arkko 00:49:39.574 --> 00:49:40.204 Thank you. 155 Eve Schooler 00:49:40.264 --> 00:49:41.194 For the extra minute. 156 Jari Arkko 00:49:41.224 --> 00:49:51.604 I think it's sort of, um, uh, out of time for questions, maybe, um, that we should move on to the next talk, uh, Carlos, which 1 of you is doing that. 157 Suresh Krishnan 00:49:53.554 --> 00:49:54.484 I can go. 158 Jari Arkko 00:49:55.354 --> 00:49:55.684 Thank you. 159 Suresh Krishnan 00:49:57.274 --> 00:50:05.164 I just had 1 slide and Eve like, you did an awesome job, like, you know, this consumed a lot of like, you know, what I was gonna say is, but I'm happy anyway. So go ahead. 160 Eve Schooler 00:50:05.164 --> 00:50:05.524 All right. 161 Eve Schooler 00:50:10.204 --> 00:50:12.904 You inspired me to include it. Here. You have it. 162 Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 00:50:14.464 --> 00:50:17.674 So, will we have discussions afterwards or. 163 Jari Arkko 00:50:20.974 --> 00:50:23.104 We will have time for discussion afterwards. 164 Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 00:50:23.164 --> 00:50:25.204 Okay, yeah, because I had a question. 165 Suresh Krishnan 00:50:26.344 --> 00:50:28.414 Thank you. Can you hear me. 166 Jari Arkko 00:50:29.434 --> 00:50:30.694 Yes, I see it. 167 Suresh Krishnan 00:50:31.174 --> 00:50:40.024 Yeah, thanks. Uh, so just like Gary and Colin asked to summarize, like, pretty much the, the, the improvement, the employee, um, the implementation technology. 168 Suresh Krishnan 00:50:40.084 --> 00:51:01.204 Protocols so, I think like, a lot of this is gonna be overlapping with what you said, but I just do want to put up the salient things that came up not only on day 3 but also before, uh, that's related to, like, you know, what we can do pretty quickly on the implementation and the technology side. So, 1 thing that kind of came up a lot of talks was like, you know, they, we need to measure, like, what we have to do like, you know, how to. 169 Suresh Krishnan 00:51:01.209 --> 00:51:22.354 Whole thing, so I think the metrics are networking was like, pretty high up, like, you know, quite a few, like, in Alex's talk or talk, like, you know, even the, uh, like, you know, earlier like, you know, I think you've stopped. Like, now, a lot of it's actually focused on how to measure things and 1 of the key things was, like, how do we standardize the terminology and what is getting measured? So, like, we don't we all talk about the same thing when we are comparing a different product. 170 Suresh Krishnan 00:51:22.504 --> 00:51:43.294 Different networks, and so on to how to talk the same language and, and I think this is another key thing. Like, it came again in multiple talks. Like, how do we improve non networking things? So, we are networking people, we can improve that, but, uh, there's like, 2 aspects. Like, how do we kind of take care of, like our value chain, like know where things are coming from. So, like, you know, I think Alex was talking a little bit about, um. 171 Suresh Krishnan 00:51:43.564 --> 00:52:04.654 How do we actually, like, look at the power and, like, you know, uh, on on the chat side, uh, is all we're talking about it as well like, you know, how do we actually, um, take the whole product life cycle into consideration right? Like, you know, how do we take the packaging the modularity and we also talked about, like, you know, how things can be, like, more reusable right? Like, how can we things a bit more. 172 Suresh Krishnan 00:52:04.660 --> 00:52:25.805 Flexible at the cost of, like, having a longer life product and I think it's like, uh, I think also dovetails into what said a little bit, um, you know, how do we, like, stick with, like, you know, um, something that's good enough like, go forward. Right and and this all dovetails into having slide a little bit more flexibility built in if it doesn't cost too much. Right and and kind of like. 173 Suresh Krishnan 00:52:25.834 --> 00:52:46.924 Things for longer, and the other angle was really the energy of our routing stuff. So there's like, uh, like simple things, like, you know, picking more energy, efficient routes. If we have the information, uh, and also time variant routing that, like, you know, um, uh, Russell, number of, like, talk was about, um, so there's like, kind of compromises in there again as well. Um, and I think that's like. 174 Suresh Krishnan 00:52:46.959 --> 00:53:08.104 Team I kind of want to summarize it at the end, but the thing was, like, okay, like, you know, if you start doing stuff like, you know, um, you know, turning off links or turning off routers and so on, like, you know, the convergence, like, kind of takes a hit, right? Like, so it's not gonna be like a 0 cost to, uh, do this. And I think like, earlier talks, I think it was, uh, Daniel was talking about duty cycling things, right? Like, so it kind of. 175 Suresh Krishnan 00:53:08.134 --> 00:53:29.254 Into the same thing, so the can either be due to constraints in the, um, the technology itself, or could be something that you, uh, actually want to do, which is duty cycling. And I think, uh, another concept that came up was, like, is it possible to time shift demand so, this came up in, like, multiple things like, you know, how do we, um, like, kind of like, you know, not hit the peaks, right? Because the. 176 Suresh Krishnan 00:53:29.344 --> 00:53:50.194 The function of like, you know, the the networks spending energy is not like pretty, it's not linear. So there's like a whole bunch of, like, discontinuities. And how do we actually keep stuff uh, uh, by time shifting demand? So, we don't have to grow as quickly or wait till the I think like, it was, who talked about a little bit. I'm like, wait for the, uh, improvements to catch up. Right? Like before we do the upgrades to them. 177 Suresh Krishnan 00:53:51.995 --> 00:54:11.105 And, uh, on the multi side again, like, there's like, kind of I, I heard, like, 2 different things that are, like, kind of opposite to each other. Um, so, like, you know, how can we use multicast to improve things? Right? Like, you know, kind of like CD and distributions and stuff and so on. But also, like, stuff on the side, like, you know, kind of, um, Pascal talking about, like, you know, how, like, you know. 178 Suresh Krishnan 00:54:11.644 --> 00:54:17.434 Effects like a lot of the constrained networks. So I think it's kind of again, um, boils down to this kind of, uh, trade off thing. 179 Suresh Krishnan 00:54:18.904 --> 00:54:39.724 And, uh, so following on into data formats, like, and this is like, a really good presentation as well, like, you know, the kind of comparison. And there's like, 2 things I kind of came off from it, like 1 of them is the efficiency trade off, like, have to be made. Sometimes like, uh, if you really compressed things, um, is it gonna make it less readable or. 180 Suresh Krishnan 00:54:39.784 --> 00:55:00.904 It doesn't matter, right? I think that's something we need to think about. And also, uh, how much is the magnitude of impact. So we talk about, like, 30% like, you know, what is that 30% off? So, if you, if it's just going to be a manifest for some video, that's already compressed like, you know, how much does it safe um, and going up to like, high level thoughts? Um, I think this is like an interesting thing that came up. 181 Suresh Krishnan 00:55:00.935 --> 00:55:22.055 In chat, and I think Rob talked about it a little bit. Um, is there a way for us to kind of share, um, the energy impact to the users? So I think this is like a very difficult problem, but it's a very interesting problem for us to look at. So it's kind of like a longer term thing. Uh, how do we actually, uh, show the users like, what they are like, really resulting in energy impact right? And that changes. 182 Suresh Krishnan 00:55:22.084 --> 00:55:43.204 Behavior that's something to kind of get to. And the follow up to that is, um, is good enough. Good enough. So, is there, like, you know, if if people are happier with, like, in a lower definition video, or, like, you know, low latency, or, like, lower availability, like, should be able to push towards that rather than trying to always maximize on all these, uh. 183 Suresh Krishnan 00:55:43.234 --> 00:56:04.354 It's another thing high level we need to think of another interesting thought that came up, like, mostly in the chat and discussions. Uh, I was like, if we design for constraint, is it gonna be, uh, equally good for non constraints? So, like, you know, kind of think of the most constrained environment, like most energy, uh, restrictive and design for that and, and try to re. 184 Suresh Krishnan 00:56:04.384 --> 00:56:25.474 Stand for non concern, because it should work. Right it's like a like a hypothesis we need to kind of test it. That's true. Or not. Right. And and the last thing I want to kind of leave it, and this is how I talked to earlier about this um, so no such thing as free launch. So, it's, um, I, I know we can always optimize on the energy front, but it does it actually catch, um, the. 185 Suresh Krishnan 00:56:25.534 --> 00:56:36.784 Um, like, you know, the other side of it, like, is there other things that are important for the users? So kind of document the trade offs a little bit, and go from there so, yeah, yeah, I saw you type something in the chat, but I cannot see. 186 Jari Arkko 00:56:38.554 --> 00:56:42.604 Yeah, I'm avoiding asking a question because of lack of time, but I. 187 Suresh Krishnan 00:56:42.994 --> 00:56:43.354 Sure. 188 Jari Arkko 00:56:43.804 --> 00:56:45.664 Others can comment on the chat also. 189 Suresh Krishnan 00:56:46.414 --> 00:56:46.654 Yeah. 190 Suresh Krishnan 00:56:46.715 --> 00:56:54.905 So, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm done with so I kind of like rush through it. So, like, no, um, if you have time, I can take questions. Um. 191 Jari Arkko 00:56:56.075 --> 00:57:04.895 Yeah, I, I'm almost of the opinion that we go to the end of the presentation, then we discuss. So, um, I think your next. 192 Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:13.114 --> 00:57:16.594 Uh, can you hear me? Okay okay. 193 Jari Arkko 00:57:17.254 --> 00:57:17.824 Yes. 194 Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:18.574 --> 00:57:19.924 I'll share my PowerPoint. 195 Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:27.214 --> 00:57:27.904 Okay. 196 Jari Arkko 00:57:28.984 --> 00:57:29.674 We see. 197 Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:30.124 --> 00:57:31.234 Okay, perfect. 198 Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:34.985 --> 00:57:54.335 Okay, uh, I'll start with the where we are, uh, we are currently shifting from the monolithic architecture of, uh, 4 g, going towards the service based 1, uh, of in which natural elements are, uh, natural functions, uh, which are usually a virtual machine. 199 Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:54.484 --> 00:58:15.394 Containers regarding the radio access network, uh, we can say that 5 g supports, uh, open run, uh, which supports, uh, the splitting of, um, the base stations. Moreover, it's worth highlighting that most of the energy consumptions, uh, about. 200 Beatrice Siccardi 00:58:15.515 --> 00:58:36.635 3rd, uh, is, uh, related to the, uh, radio access network. Uh, finally, we can say that 5 g enables the edge computing technology, uh, this, uh, modifies is going to modify, uh, the, uh, data center topology, uh, from a huge centralized. 201 Beatrice Siccardi 00:58:36.994 --> 00:58:57.784 Data centers towards a smaller and smaller edge data centers, uh, from a research point of view, uh, we are already at, uh, and we are focusing, especially on it's crucial point, which is going to be energy efficiency even though we can say that the. 202 Beatrice Siccardi 00:58:57.814 --> 00:59:18.874 Energy efficiency issues issue has already been tackled a bit in a, for example, uh, by increasing the sleep mode of, uh, device of 5 g, devices, uh, the next steps that we have to take a, I think, start with the observer ability because, as we said. 203 Beatrice Siccardi 00:59:18.965 --> 00:59:40.055 Earlier we can't control what we don't measure. So, especially here, I think standardization bodies such as can make a difference we need 1st of all to define which metrics to consider. And then also we have to relate these metrics to individual vertical applications. This is. 204 Beatrice Siccardi 00:59:40.089 --> 01:00:00.964 Is a non trivial task since we have in at least 1 visualization layer. Once we have the metrics, we can make the network, uh, energy or Carbone aware, and we can exploit this awareness in order to, um, by incentivizing economically the stakeholders who. 205 Beatrice Siccardi 01:00:01.295 --> 01:00:17.465 Consume less, for example, another use of the metrics that we have to do is the, uh, optimization and we see the trend of energy efficiency optimization and optimization in general is following artificial intelligence. Now. 206 Beatrice Siccardi 01:00:19.594 --> 01:00:40.714 In the position papers that were presented in this workshop, I found a 4 proposed, uh, solutions regarding the energy efficiency of mobile networks. Uh, the 1st, 1 was, uh, proposed by, uh, a paper from anonymous authors, uh, who propose a method to collect and calculate. 207 Beatrice Siccardi 01:00:40.719 --> 01:01:01.864 The end to end energy efficiency of edge services, uh, based on, uh, the traffic pass from end users to edge service replicas. Uh, the other, the other 3 are present in our position paper. And if you want for details, you should, uh, you can. 208 Beatrice Siccardi 01:01:01.895 --> 01:01:23.015 Find them there regarding of durability, we propose the energy where back pressure who's aim is to collect, uh, energy KPI, that different levels, uh, such as that vertical application level at the slice level. And also at overall network level and to. 209 Beatrice Siccardi 01:01:23.284 --> 01:01:44.104 Make all the stakeholders are aware of such KPIs regarding the optimization technique techniques. We propose a 2 concepts, the agility 1, which consists of the space shift of network functions and, or a vertical application components. 210 Beatrice Siccardi 01:01:44.494 --> 01:02:05.314 Based on, for example, user movements, or, uh, for example, based on availability of renewable energy. So, with the agility, we would be able to, uh, provide services only when, and where they are needed uh, finally the last, uh, the last method we propose. 211 Beatrice Siccardi 01:02:05.344 --> 01:02:26.464 Is green plasticity, which consists in the, uh, dynamic and adaptive, uh, hardware, assisted a offloading of natural functions and, or vertical application components, uh, in case of a very heavy workload with a very high, uh, requirements. 212 Beatrice Siccardi 01:02:26.469 --> 01:02:33.814 In terms of latency, for example, thank you. If you have any questions, please ask them. 213 Jari Arkko 01:02:36.005 --> 01:02:43.025 Yeah, um, there will be discussed at the moment. Um, and you can ask on the on the chat, um, next up John. 214 John Preuß Mattsson 01:02:51.244 --> 01:02:53.584 Yeah, do you see my screen or do you hear me. 215 Jari Arkko 01:02:54.514 --> 01:02:55.204 Yes. 216 John Preuß Mattsson 01:02:56.194 --> 01:03:07.354 Good so this is a presentation trying to summarize what we should not do trying to summarize what has been mentioned in the paper and in. 217 John Preuß Mattsson 01:03:08.134 --> 01:03:17.164 Uh, discussions and a lot of things have been about energy in efficiency as. 218 John Preuß Mattsson 01:03:17.254 --> 01:03:36.724 Several people talking about, we should not use bad sources of energy with some different definition, or what is green and then we have, we should not do luxury consumers more basically, unnecessary things that are not needed. 219 John Preuß Mattsson 01:03:39.125 --> 01:03:59.525 Use systems, they use a lot of resources either when you create them, like water, land minerals, or create a lot of E, waste should not do digital consumerism. This might be very bad condition during, for example, mining or. 220 John Preuß Mattsson 01:04:00.034 --> 01:04:20.674 Much pollution during the production where it might be based that or 74, even when it's formally stand for recycling should not do things that have a negative impact on society should not use numbers that don't add up a little bit. 221 John Preuß Mattsson 01:04:20.705 --> 01:04:41.825 And aspects should not send too many acts, or in general not send too many messages, and we should not fly which use systems instead um, some slides on specific topics. Energy efficiency has been discussed a lot. 222 John Preuß Mattsson 01:04:42.514 --> 01:05:02.824 A clear low hanging fruit for what not to do here is the assets with proof of work. They use energy, like a small country. It could also be seen as having a negative impact and being unusable. Another example, was this binary washes. 223 John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:03.724 --> 01:05:09.994 Text with a 3rd thing, new protocols can generally decrease. 224 Jari Arkko 01:05:20.975 --> 01:05:22.865 So, not at least I lost your voice. 225 Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:05:27.994 --> 01:05:28.864 Yeah, me too. 226 John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:32.915 --> 01:05:33.845 More secure. 227 Jari Arkko 01:05:34.535 --> 01:05:36.785 Shawn, we lost the last minute of your. 228 John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:38.645 --> 01:05:39.365 Huh? You didn't. 229 John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:41.285 --> 01:05:44.105 Um, but I hear you. Do you hear me now? Yep. 230 Jari Arkko 01:05:44.435 --> 01:05:45.035 Yes. 231 John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:45.845 --> 01:06:02.195 Okay, I, I guess another discussion is to not use bad energy sources. Uh, people has, what should we do what is bad and what is what we should do. 232 John Preuß Mattsson 01:06:02.224 --> 01:06:23.074 Instead has been different green and clean and might not be very defined. Renewable might be a little bit of target and maybe not enough, uh, might be better to be more concrete. Like, don't use systems that energy sources with. 233 John Preuß Mattsson 01:06:23.644 --> 01:06:44.434 Large greenhouse gas emissions, uh, other things that are bad with with energy sources is maybe the 2nd, largest bad thing is maybe air pollution then you have, of course up the bad things that can be bad with energy sources. Also, like, use of. 234 John Preuß Mattsson 01:06:44.499 --> 01:06:49.774 Sources or other forms of pollution and and waste, um. 235 John Preuß Mattsson 01:06:50.974 --> 01:07:11.284 Uh, there's been discussion that we should have carbon and we're networking. Uh, maybe that can handle other aspects in the future also, is that is developed. Uh, this is a bit hard for the to control the easier to control the 1st aspects, especially. 236 John Preuß Mattsson 01:07:11.314 --> 01:07:27.664 About protocols how inefficient they are, but in general, we should consider life cycle of the systems as a whole. Um, then my last slide is about E, waste over consumption, digital colonialism. 237 John Preuß Mattsson 01:07:28.294 --> 01:07:49.354 Re, um, uh, as overconsumption in production production often is in 3rd world countries, while the products are used in in the industrial rich countries. And the same is true with based. 238 John Preuß Mattsson 01:07:49.714 --> 01:08:10.504 E, waste even understand for recycling in the Western bird. They end up in a non responsible way in developing countries. Um, so we should avoid things that produce a lot of E, waste. At least that cannot be recycled in a. 239 John Preuß Mattsson 01:08:10.984 --> 01:08:11.524 Wait. 240 Jari Arkko 01:08:16.173 --> 01:08:22.414 Thanks a lot and, uh, we're gonna move right on to, uh, talking here the last 1. 241 Jukka Manner 01:08:27.363 --> 01:08:30.994 Save the videos thoughts or math looks like it's not starting. 242 Jari Arkko 01:08:33.094 --> 01:08:34.024 Yeah, we hear you though. 243 Jukka Manner 01:08:35.074 --> 01:08:36.814 Oh, that's better. Okay. 244 Jari Arkko 01:08:36.814 --> 01:08:37.804 You can see you. 245 Jukka Manner 01:08:38.554 --> 01:08:39.064 Okay. 246 Jukka Manner 01:08:40.685 --> 01:08:45.005 So, if you had a, you know, short title. 247 Jukka Manner 01:08:47.314 --> 01:08:54.244 I took the liberty to upgrade that a bit, but, um, let's see how this works. 248 Jukka Manner 01:08:55.745 --> 01:09:16.775 So, um, yeah, um, this I added the kind of the, an, towards sustainability that was my, my contribution to the workshop earlier and, uh, in I have actually, beyond this slide. I have just questions, I don't have a single answer and a single proposal for you for everybody, but rather have been. 249 Jukka Manner 01:09:16.804 --> 01:09:37.713 Following the discussion on the list, and in these meetings and made some notes on on that on, on the sustainability annual. So not selling anything. But, um, starting starting from way, way further in trying to understand what sustainability. 250 Jukka Manner 01:09:37.930 --> 01:09:59.075 Sustainable and stuff like that is then if you even go to the U N, sustainable development goals, then that's a huge area. It has elements that, you know, there was in the previous presentation and investment has been talking about similar topics. We're not seeing creatures, you know, pick fixing some smaller technological. 251 Jukka Manner 01:09:59.104 --> 01:10:12.004 Color issue, but looking, at the big perspective, I'm not saying that we, that we should be discussing all these 17 goals, but just to highlight the sustainability means a lot of different things. 252 Jukka Manner 01:10:13.265 --> 01:10:34.325 If we go a bit more into the to the topic, then I have 2 slides of all the questions because I have been working on this, let's say, energy efficiency and sustainability topic in for over 10 years. And it's always a kind of challenging. What is scoped and what is actually what people see. 253 Jukka Manner 01:10:34.354 --> 01:10:55.474 Scope and what they are looking at, for example, energy has been mentioned many times. Are we talking about, are we measuring electrical energy or measuring, you know, use of all possible energy sources on this planet? Are we talking about renewable energy, or just energy usage as a whole for example, if every. 254 Jukka Manner 01:10:55.534 --> 01:11:16.564 Thing is renewable in the future is the problem solved in the previous slide in which you could see that, you know, there's no such thing as, you know, free energy. There are less than less than more N re, uh, kind of emissions from an energy source. But all energy sources need to be built. 255 Jukka Manner 01:11:16.630 --> 01:11:37.775 Deployed and so forth. Are we talking about embodied energy or just the operational side? I'm seeing many discussions, you know, in this last week on the topic or are we talking about carbon emissions or energy? Carbon emissions? Are we talking about scopes 123? And there was scope. 256 Jukka Manner 01:11:37.894 --> 01:11:44.014 I mentioned today even so, this seems to be totally, depending on who was talking. 257 Jukka Manner 01:11:46.355 --> 01:12:07.385 And or are we talking about coming back to the, you know, embodied energy? And are we talking about? And actually, the previous presentation had this, you know, um, waste and so forth. Are we talking about the whole life cycle of, of equipment of systems of networks, or just, you know, something related to. 258 Jukka Manner 01:12:07.390 --> 01:12:12.875 Operational side seems to be that people are talking about different things. 259 Jukka Manner 01:12:15.004 --> 01:12:35.554 Talking about, you know, for example, hardware and again, is it just operational? Is it the whole life cycle? There's been these discussions on the, on the mailing list on this consumption, or or or hardware vendors, implementing energy, proportional systems or their load based is their role based consumption or. 260 Jukka Manner 01:12:35.614 --> 01:12:49.564 Everything is flat, so it doesn't really matter whether you are sending 1 beat or 10. gigabits. It's the same. So, you know, who cares again, seems to be different different viewpoints whether it's in scope or not of. 261 Jukka Manner 01:12:49.689 --> 01:13:10.834 Be to make proposals suggestions on hardware implementation that's, you know, again, as I said, to me, it's an open question and my last slide again continue the same chain of thought throwing out. Or are we talking about on 1 hand hardware on 1 hand software? Do we. 262 Jukka Manner 01:13:10.864 --> 01:13:31.594 Testing, for example, some implementation guidelines, some, you know, ways to do more clever implementations, more energy, efficient or carbon saving, depending on, depending on your metric and KPI. So, would that be in scope? I don't have the answer just raising out questions. 263 Jukka Manner 01:13:32.015 --> 01:13:53.135 I see our need to be discussed or are we simply talking about architectures and their impact how different things and there was, for example, these different ways of routing routing have been mentioned many times. So, is that something that would be a scope or not in scope or are we may be focusing on protocol level? 264 Jukka Manner 01:13:53.165 --> 01:14:14.195 Things again, you know, you could, you could you could work with 1 or both or any combination then coming back to the scope for and in general. Are we simply talking about footprint or often people, especially in the in the let's say, uh, I see the sector in the business side often. 265 Jukka Manner 01:14:14.289 --> 01:14:29.944 Advocate to hand print side so the scope for us was mentioned. So how much good it does so that neglects the bad. But what is what would be the WH, what would be in scope for the I have to consider potentially in the future. 266 Jukka Manner 01:14:31.234 --> 01:14:52.354 Again, in my opinion open question, then are we talking about simply short term things, you know, just use renewable energy on problem solved? Or are we talking about long term questions for example, just using less absolute amounts of energy because all the energy sources need to be. 267 Jukka Manner 01:14:53.434 --> 01:15:13.504 So it's not necessarily about just use renewables and, you know, problems solved or or or or things like that. So, in that sense, uh, and our energy sources in general, even in the scope to consider, you know, what energy sources companies are using I mean, there are countries who have, you know, very late. 268 Jukka Manner 01:15:14.825 --> 01:15:34.025 Renewable sources, and then there's countries like nowhere, which, uh, as far as I understand, was 99% renewables. So there's no way need to do anything because they are running on renewables. So again, and at the end, it seems to be that, you know, the final question is there probably in the 1st place. 269 Jukka Manner 01:15:34.775 --> 01:15:37.145 By the or. 270 Jukka Manner 01:15:38.194 --> 01:15:55.714 Because, on 1 hand, if you look at these different, you know, uh, trends and trends and and kind of views to the future, some say we are going going in the wrong direction. And, of course, some people say that we are going the right direction. And and hardware solves the problem and everything is fine. 271 Jukka Manner 01:15:58.234 --> 01:16:12.754 Event that doesn't to me, it doesn't seem to be clear that, uh, that is there even a problem to consider, but I'll stop here. That's my kind of 33 slides of questions questions questions. 272 Jari Arkko 01:16:15.245 --> 01:16:35.105 Thank you and maybe that's sort of a fitting final presentation, because sort of points the fact that we have lots of open questions, right? Yeah. Maybe they actually have some answers to your, your questions. I think we have a pretty wide scope. We can't only focus on a narrow thing. Some of some things are, of course, outside the scope of. 273 Jari Arkko 01:16:35.404 --> 01:16:41.224 You have to make improvements in, but we still probably need to understand, but those things are happening. 274 Jari Arkko 01:16:42.514 --> 01:16:57.904 But I'll open it for general discussion now and, um, yeah, like, um, uh, conclusions and, uh, proposals for next steps and, and such. I, I will take at the end a little bit of time for. 275 Jari Arkko 01:16:59.525 --> 01:17:17.915 My view where we are, um, I took some notes during the session, um, but, um, go ahead. Um, either shoot questions to the presenters, or make comments about stuff that you think we should focus on or do, or actions that are doable. 276 heb 01:17:20.795 --> 01:17:41.555 I haven't heard anything from service providers, maybe 1 or 2 or Verizon, but I haven't heard the, I'm not sure from network operators. Most of the presentations from academia or people in the industry, but I haven't heard anything. 277 heb 01:17:43.774 --> 01:17:46.984 To avoid those carriers. 278 Jari Arkko 01:17:49.114 --> 01:18:05.794 Yeah, that that's actually a common problem in in many contexts, the ideas, um, this is not we're not alone in that respect, but if anybody from the operators actually wants to speak up and and is present and please, please speak up, we do, did have some, some data from them. 279 Jari Arkko 01:18:07.714 --> 01:18:18.694 But it's always the, um, yeah, I, I work for a vendor, um, we try to innovate on on stuff. Um, but somewhat, sometimes we're too eager, much better to hear from the people who actually run things. 280 Toerless Eckert 01:18:25.114 --> 01:18:28.174 Is the a plus Q mechanism still use or? Sorry? 281 Jari Arkko 01:18:29.524 --> 01:18:34.324 Uh, well, uh, we didn't say anything about that, but yeah, yes, go ahead. 282 Toerless Eckert 01:18:35.494 --> 01:18:42.184 No, I, I think the, the main question to the organizers is, if you already have any ideas or how we should. 283 Toerless Eckert 01:18:42.189 --> 01:19:03.334 Continue the discussion, um, outside of of your answer I certainly, you know, seen, um, um, welcoming, um, you know, um, people in the ops area working group just, um, uh, when when there are things that can be put into the form of a submissions, which may or may not be appropriate to. 284 Toerless Eckert 01:19:03.364 --> 01:19:11.524 Can you the discussion best but, uh, yeah, so I think, you know, sort of really talking about subjects right now. I was wondering about that primarily. 285 Jari Arkko 01:19:15.035 --> 01:19:35.195 Uh, yes, uh, that's sort of a preview of what, um, we had in mind is that, um, they will there's some practical, uh, um, you know, next steps for for the workshop. We'll write the report as we normally do. We'll talk about this in the open. 286 Jari Arkko 01:19:36.244 --> 01:19:56.914 Some of the things that being talked about will progress independently. Probably there's some metrics work working group will we'll go ahead and, and many other things will happen. Uh, either the idea for elsewhere as a implementation improvements. Um, I think we should also continue this a bit more widely. Um, maybe there's some other things. 287 Jari Arkko 01:19:56.944 --> 01:20:13.834 We should be doing, um, maybe get the ops area involved. Um, I think we should continue the good discussion on the mailing list. Um, in the, in this, um, gathering, and perhaps open it up for everybody wants to. 288 Toerless Eckert 01:20:15.274 --> 01:20:18.064 Yeah, that can be transformed into an open mailing list. 289 Toerless Eckert 01:20:18.154 --> 01:20:38.914 With, um, you know, with an archive or so that would certainly be the least overhead and least controversial approach. Um, the, the, the, the, the form that I did, like, um, in the, of course, are, I think I had already said that, uh, um, and before the special interest working groups, which are not that much tied to, um. 290 Toerless Eckert 01:20:39.664 --> 01:20:53.134 The deliverables that we usually expect from working groups or research groups. Um, but that are more to to bring communities together. Um, so, um, maybe that would also be something for you to look into if that would be appropriate. 291 Jari Arkko 01:20:55.714 --> 01:20:56.224 Thank you. 292 Jari Arkko 01:20:59.495 --> 01:21:03.125 And I'm trying to track the queue. Where are we, um. 293 Jari Arkko 01:21:05.165 --> 01:21:05.765 Chris. 294 Chris Adams 01:21:07.775 --> 01:21:25.745 Effects Thank you. Um, there was 1 thing a reflection I wanted to share. That is probably unique or interesting. Specifically. The network context is that I'm among with all the papers I saw, I think, beyond a reference from Bruce norman's paper, talking about a power price index, as a way to kind of communicate things. 295 Chris Adams 01:21:25.774 --> 01:21:37.054 Like, the cost and carbon intensity of electricity. I'm, I'm weather I didn't actually see any research about how things like peering or paying for transit might work. 296 Chris Adams 01:21:41.165 --> 01:22:00.995 Price a different kind of carbon and Tennessee in different parts of the world and I feel like because the Internet has a kind of different, unique, different economic model with ideas, like pairing and different stewardship of resources. I figured that might be quite a fertile ground for a search that other sectors and other places might not be so well placed to do where there's. 297 Chris Adams 01:22:01.384 --> 01:22:14.404 Probably a chance for the to share some really groundbreaking stuff that could be adopted and, and lots of places. That was 1 thing that I, I'm sharing that part as a provocation. And I'd be really up for exploring not in the meeting list. If there's anyone else who's looked at any of that at all. 298 Jari Arkko 01:22:16.234 --> 01:22:17.644 Sounds like an exciting topic. 299 Jari Arkko 01:22:20.134 --> 01:22:22.744 Um, and let me see. 300 Jari Arkko 01:22:25.204 --> 01:22:25.714 Rob. 301 Rob Wilton 01:22:27.514 --> 01:22:27.784 Yes. 302 Rob Wilton 01:22:28.774 --> 01:22:48.934 I'll put my sort of mainly in the chat. Actually. My question is also back to is whether we should be trying to set up a work in the short term. So I think there's been lots of very interesting discussion here. Some of it, I think is things are quite actionable in the short term that we can do. I think documents proposing of suggestions is quite easy to act on quite quick. 303 Rob Wilton 01:22:49.594 --> 01:22:58.324 Uh, generating metrics is quite easy to act on quite quickly and there's other things I think we've discussed where we've seen wider issues that might not be something you can solve in the tool. 304 Rob Wilton 01:22:58.894 --> 01:23:19.864 Do wonder whether creating a working group in the in the short term would be a good idea attacked as a focal point for these discussions. I do have a question whether that ends up being a talking shop or and or what sort of actionable work it can do. But similar is, I think, is especially interest groups and ops and things a bit like. 305 Rob Wilton 01:23:20.524 --> 01:23:28.894 Having a focal point, this might be a way of coordinating this work. Well, quickly within the I. T, I don't know. So that's 1 thought that I have a suggestion. 306 Jari Arkko 01:23:30.664 --> 01:23:41.014 Yeah, it's good. Good question. I don't know what the answer is really, but, um, uh, we also have a fairly broad range of topics and some are at. 307 Jari Arkko 01:23:41.109 --> 01:23:53.764 Side of things some are very practical things and they also cross different areas and some are routing from our and other stuff. Um, so it may not be super easy either to have 1 place. But, um. 308 Rob Wilton 01:23:56.584 --> 01:24:15.514 You had to do the work there, so sort of tried to coordinate with other working groups. So, in some cases, that that aspect of doing that, the routing, the routing, if it's fine and the aspect of longer term versus short term, I think we'd have to have a goal of only be looking at work within the, the short, shorter term goals and the longer term stuff you'd say. 309 Rob Wilton 01:24:16.804 --> 01:24:17.404 Be my fault. 310 Jari Arkko 01:24:20.074 --> 01:24:22.474 Thank you, uh, next up on the curious. 311 Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:24:24.094 --> 01:24:37.414 Yes, thank you. So I had a comment, a reflection, which is general and especially I came to think of it when listening to Eva and so, um, I think Eva mentioned something. 312 Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:24:37.535 --> 01:24:58.655 Around the gap analysis, you refer back to me as well. Um, I think in addition to, to when entering a collaboration with other organizations or starting some gap analysis analysis, it would probably be good to sort of carve out. 313 Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:24:59.045 --> 01:25:08.285 For for iatf, because there is there are so many initiatives going on all over the place. Uh, and, uh, uh. 314 Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:25:08.554 --> 01:25:29.674 I think what we have during these days, we have we have been high level, we have been on details. We have been going wide. We haven't been going narrow and we have been on the principal level and the practical level. Uh, so I think it would really be good to, to maybe sort out a niche on, on what I, what, what could be the. 315 Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:25:29.975 --> 01:25:50.705 Um, um, aspects, or, or the main, uh, value that could contribute what what could you do that? No 1 else could do and the, the 2nd would be, uh, like, on the advocating plan, which is, um, things that are maybe more high level but but. 316 Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:25:50.829 --> 01:26:05.764 Which might be ongoing in different places, but you want to push a certain direction. So so I thought it could be good. That that could be a good way of thinking to, to, to find the position in this guy or really quite complex landscape. 317 Jari Arkko 01:26:10.475 --> 01:26:11.015 Fresh. 318 Suresh Krishnan 01:26:12.155 --> 01:26:30.305 Yeah, thank you. Thanks. Uh, uh, I think a really good point. I think, like, Rob had a really good point, like, have a focal point. May not have to produce work but at least like, where people can go and talk so totally up for that. And I think 1 more thing I wanted to add is, like, there's some stuff that we cannot do right? Like, I think like, vanilla brought it up. Like, Robert, a bunch of people brought it up. I think. 319 Suresh Krishnan 01:26:30.364 --> 01:26:51.244 The can be the, the, the group that kind of dispatch it off to somebody else. So we probably have some relationships with some other, like, where this work can be done. So, if there's something we can figure out on, or send a link or anything, right that we are actually talking to, uh, I think it might be a good thing to kind of like, also pass information to other. 320 Suresh Krishnan 01:26:51.544 --> 01:26:56.494 Um, things that could be useful for us that we don't either have the expertise, or don't want to do. 321 Eve Schooler 01:27:07.714 --> 01:27:10.054 I think you, uh, Bruce has his hand up. 322 Jari Arkko 01:27:11.164 --> 01:27:13.114 Thank you let's go ahead. 323 Bruce Nordman2 01:27:14.854 --> 01:27:25.174 Yeah, thank you very much. This has been a great session this last 4 days. Um, I would just, like, raise 2 points 1, is that, as I mentioned a few days ago, the. 324 Bruce Nordman2 01:27:25.299 --> 01:27:46.174 Energy use of all electronic devices is probably about an order of magnitude larger than network equipment. And there are things that the and could do to help reduce the energy use of those Internet connected electronic devices. There would be probably larger than everything we could do to reduce the energy. So, network equipment, and we should be mindful of that. 325 Bruce Nordman2 01:27:47.794 --> 01:28:07.594 Pay attention to that as well, but I think the thing that we could do that would be the greatest affect on total carbon emissions globally would be to help our electricity system move from the 19th century to the 21st century, our electricity technology, whether it be wide area network. 326 Bruce Nordman2 01:28:08.015 --> 01:28:28.745 How electricity networks organized to even more importantly how this organized locally within buildings is, as hardly changed in many important respects since the 880 s and it desperately needs an upgrade. And I think we really don't appreciate the fact that their Internet technology was a revolution that overthrew our. 327 Bruce Nordman2 01:28:28.749 --> 01:28:48.904 Military phone system to move to a network model, and we desperately need to do the same thing for electricity and we've done this. So, we know we've learned a lot about how to sort of reinvent a technology on a networking model and the electricity people really have a lack of vision in this area and desperately need the help of. 328 Bruce Nordman2 01:28:50.854 --> 01:29:04.984 The people on this call, so so please, please help out that's far more carbon at stake in improving our electricity system. So we can integrate more renewables and reduce costs than everything else we could do. So, thank you. 329 Jari Arkko 01:29:10.354 --> 01:29:11.944 Hey, Hassan, did you want to say something. 330 Hosein Badran 01:29:12.874 --> 01:29:27.604 Yes, please Thank you. Thank you. Eric. Yes, I joined the, uh, the praise for the workshop quite quite interesting. What what area of topics have been discussed I think on the on the topic of, um, collaborating with other. 331 Hosein Badran 01:29:28.504 --> 01:29:34.894 I think it makes quite good sense to consider 1 of them as the and as. 332 Hosein Badran 01:29:35.674 --> 01:29:54.244 On the side, so the group 13 focused on future networks, looking at, um, expansions of existing architectures, um, um, some, some, uh, new protocols that could be considered and study group 5, or looks at the environment environmental aspects of of. 333 Hosein Badran 01:29:54.935 --> 01:30:15.035 Um, I think it would be good critical and some expectation for, for the who have has the protocol experience on the stack experience that that such knowledge comes from from the, and also for reasons of continuity and also for backwards compatibility. 334 Hosein Badran 01:30:16.085 --> 01:30:36.965 one of the issues is with proposals of protocol expansions and um and the new enhancements that the interoperability with existing architecture could be could be put at risk so it needs to be considered and i think will be the best place to to ensure that whatever protocols extensions are being considered um they would be um 335 Hosein Badran 01:30:37.084 --> 01:30:44.944 and backwards compatible and can co exist with existing architectures one area it 336 Hosein Badran 01:30:45.814 --> 01:31:06.634 That could be, um, uh, at risk is too, too, with lack of interoperability. If these protocols are done somewhere else, that, um, fragmentation of network could be, would be, uh, could could take place. So, I think these are areas to consider and I shared the view that collaboration in this vast space is necessary. 337 Hosein Badran 01:31:06.694 --> 01:31:20.974 Because no entity has the whole experience of the value chain, but I think also, um, we need to focus on where we have the expertise, and can lend our expertise to other and collaborate on that in that front. Thank you. 338 Jari Arkko 01:31:22.595 --> 01:31:43.235 Yeah, good point. Um, and indeed collaboration is the way to go and finding the, our niche is pretty loaded. I think, um, it's, um, is key and, um, we don't own the whole whole problem on part of it. And even for the part that we are working on, we need to maybe sometimes understand what's going on. 339 Jari Arkko 01:31:44.584 --> 01:31:46.144 Other parts, um. 340 Jari Arkko 01:31:47.584 --> 01:32:08.704 That's an example, if we want to play tricks on our side on, like, when when things are up and down and so on, um, we would actually have to understand what the leak layers do and whether that's beneficial or not under what circumstances. So, there's a lot lots to, um, coordinate, but maybe even yeah, possibly some meetings where there's more, uh, joined. 341 Jari Arkko 01:32:08.734 --> 01:32:27.664 This based on in this space, it might be useful thing. Um, looking at the time, I think, um, I don't see anybody else having their hands up. Um, if not, then I'll just go briefly to my final slides. 342 Jari Arkko 01:32:34.535 --> 01:32:38.315 I think, um, I think you see my screen. Yeah. Um. 343 Jari Arkko 01:32:39.964 --> 01:33:00.814 I I, I will have sort of a technical conclusions I'll cover that last, but so that the next steps in the workshop, uh, we talked about that a little bit earlier and Charles was asking about this, but a discussion on voice should continue. We'll work on a draft report. Um, if if you are interested, please contribute, we don't probably. 344 Jari Arkko 01:33:00.880 --> 01:33:22.025 50 people helping, but we would appreciate a couple, like, everybody, um, or a person, at least for for each of the sections and the sections are rough like our systems where, um, something like that would probably be helpful. We'll be editing it with Colin. I I think, but, uh, but help would be appreciated. 345 Jari Arkko 01:33:22.054 --> 01:33:42.544 Have some discussions at the, um, I don't exactly know what the answer is in terms of a new working group I think that needs more more discussion. Um, we also heard about, um, yeah, even and, uh, service. I think you talked about the sustainability considerations and trade offs document. Um, that's that's clearly a possibility. 346 Jari Arkko 01:33:43.205 --> 01:34:00.125 Um, and that has been mentioned, there's some, some things that are in progress, or at least should be in progress. Um, if, if you're having problems getting your metrics approved in some working group, please yell and yell loudly. And the rest of us can probably help. Um, try and help there. 347 Jari Arkko 01:34:02.585 --> 01:34:03.455 Um. 348 Jari Arkko 01:34:05.885 --> 01:34:21.545 I keep thinking that we're not doing enough if, if this is all where we do, it's not probably enough. We'll probably have to do some other things. So if you have ideas, please suggest maybe given the time. So, just on the, on the chat window. Um. 349 Jari Arkko 01:34:24.244 --> 01:34:29.734 Yeah, um, before I go forward, Colleen, did you have anything else to say. 350 Colin Perkins 01:34:33.755 --> 01:34:42.785 Yeah, um, so to to wrap up from my point of view, uh, I mean, this has been an interesting workshop. Um, certainly a lot of things to think about. 351 Colin Perkins 01:34:43.864 --> 01:35:04.954 um i think a lot of these uh short term things things we can do uh engineering ways that can happen recently quickly um there's also clearly a bunch of interesting research questions there's a bunch of things which are in scope for the atf community a bunch of things which are a lot broader scope um i think 352 Colin Perkins 01:35:05.224 --> 01:35:26.074 As if said, uh, we need to remember the urgency, right? It's, it's easy to just say we need to do more research. Um, and clearly we do need to do more research. Um, but I think we need to build on the momentum and act, and maybe develop some standards in the may be develop some changes and some work elsewhere but we need. 353 Colin Perkins 01:35:26.134 --> 01:35:35.374 About how we actually affect practical change in the relatively matter. So I think this has been interesting, but I think there's a lot more to do and I look forward to doing that. 354 Jari Arkko 01:35:39.035 --> 01:35:58.535 thanks um we don't show one more thing but in the in the in the background or in the meanwhile um we'd like to know how this workshop went and um given that we're running out of time quickly then maybe we're not gonna do this verbally so you could do two things you could comment in the chat we'll save the chat 355 Jari Arkko 01:35:58.774 --> 01:36:19.684 Once you feel like, you can also email me and Colin, um, and we'll, uh, collect the the feedback and and try and build a build and understand what we did well, or what could be improved. Certainly from my perspective, that's been a stellar workshop. Really appreciate the diversity of, uh, backgrounds and opinions. 356 Jari Arkko 01:36:19.689 --> 01:36:40.834 And learning stuff, I at least personally gained in this work. So that's great. I think there's, um, there's indeed, um, momentum and urgency and it doesn't mean that we have to, like, do huge things right now. But it does mean that we have to do some things every year and keep improving. 357 Jari Arkko 01:36:40.839 --> 01:37:01.984 I think that's that that is the way to go and, um, anyway, so the 11 more thing that I wanted to show, and and this isn't complete by any any chance that I was doing that on the background, while you guys were talking. So, uh, please, excuse me, but, um, I did take some notes on, like, what are the. 358 Jari Arkko 01:37:02.015 --> 01:37:22.235 Patients 1 was on this continuous improvement and influence understanding how intent can help the society understand what the situation is. And why is it like it is and how could we affect that and understand the tradeoffs there's a bunch of useful tools. Motto, discuss somewhat focused on. 359 Jari Arkko 01:37:23.255 --> 01:37:44.285 You know, naturally on the IDF protocol design issues on some of those specifically on routing. Um, and it's probably a little bit broader than that that we have to worry about that at least in terms of, like, in our day jobs. Um, worry about the implementations worry about renewables as well as protocol design, um, actions that we should. 360 Jari Arkko 01:37:45.124 --> 01:37:48.484 Continue the discussion, um. 361 Jari Arkko 01:37:49.955 --> 01:38:10.925 The idea to others, I think that's sort of a long term thing to how can we, you know, not just have 1 meeting with somebody else, but make sure that we are on the map and understand what's needed and have have the discussion partners. Uh, W, where that actually matters maybe I'm sorry I triple sort of. 362 Jari Arkko 01:38:11.164 --> 01:38:23.134 Clear, uh, organizations come to mind, we should pick the low hanging fruits the, uh, avoiding the link to formats the crypto assets and non renewable energy. 363 Jari Arkko 01:38:25.415 --> 01:38:46.295 Big picture goals I think we should actually have a full industry understanding of internet's impact and and, like, I'm not gonna join the, uh, CO rolls of people saying that we shouldn't do research. We should act. I think we can actually do both this, uh, to begin with, um, you know, we have researchers participating in academia and there's a lot of interest in. 364 Jari Arkko 01:38:46.354 --> 01:39:06.694 Funding on this, these topics and, uh, we, we can actually do multiple things at the same time. And, um, and the academia in particular is more geared towards understanding than necessarily, uh, fixing products. For instance, there's lots of research that needs doing. I think we should dive into that somehow and. 365 Jari Arkko 01:39:07.804 --> 01:39:08.974 Yeah, um. 366 Jari Arkko 01:39:10.984 --> 01:39:13.654 I I, I think that's more or less it. Um. 367 Jari Arkko 01:39:15.724 --> 01:39:35.074 Clearly, um, we need to write up, uh, what happened in the workshop and summarize it more nicely than than this slide. But, uh, a lot of really good material and lots of leads for us to actually go and pursue and leads for different timescales and short term. And long term, so. 368 Jari Arkko 01:39:36.005 --> 01:39:40.085 That's also really good because we also need the thing that we need to do in in 5 or 10 years. So. 369 Jari Arkko 01:39:41.824 --> 01:39:42.814 Think it's all good. 370 Jari Arkko 01:39:44.675 --> 01:39:46.355 Clean any final boards. 371 Colin Perkins 01:39:49.355 --> 01:39:55.025 Uh, I think you have covered everything really well, thank you for all your efforts putting this together. 372 Jari Arkko 01:39:56.525 --> 01:39:58.355 Thank you. I, thank you. Everybody. 373 Jari Arkko 01:40:00.784 --> 01:40:20.464 Interesting and in particular, when people who commented and participate in the list. So I think this is it for this workshop. Don't forget the mailing lists keep, uh, um, sending us email. We'll try and see, um, how we can open it up and, uh, and figure out what we will do in addition to the mentioned things. 374 Jari Arkko 01:40:20.824 --> 01:40:23.374 The next slide here, so do stay tuned. 375 Jari Arkko 01:40:27.754 --> 01:40:28.354 Thank you.