I'm listening
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:00:16Z"}, {"author": "bytebuddy", "text": "I'm speaking Russian is very good
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:00:18Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Where is the rollup?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:05:35Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "it got sent to the list
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:05:47Z"}, {"author": "Brian Carpenter", "text": "It was an attachment on email
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:05:53Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "(email attachment)
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:05:55Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Thanks
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:06:57Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "I did not prepare for that. A -05 really would have been better.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:07:29Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Of course, I also have terminology.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:08:16Z"}, {"author": "Jay Daley", "text": "which Martin proposed that?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:08:38Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "+1 early and often
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:09:03Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "I am home.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:09:04Z"}, {"author": "Jean Mahoney", "text": "+1 for 05
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:09:09Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "+1 for 05
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:09:14Z"}, {"author": "Martin D\u00fcrst", "text": "That was Martin Thomson.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:09:21Z"}, {"author": "Jay Daley", "text": "Mine is a tiny, tiny terminology change
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:10:01Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Mine is a wholesale change.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:10:15Z"}, {"author": "Martin D\u00fcrst", "text": "+1 for 05
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:10:26Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@bytebuddy: What is your name, for the record?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:10:26Z"}, {"author": "bytebuddy", "text": "my name is Tigran
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:10:39Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "Tools hat on - I don't see problems.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:11:15Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@bytebuddy: Thanks. Haven't seen you post on the list.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:11:23Z"}, {"author": "Jean Mahoney", "text": "will do
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:11:28Z"}, {"author": "Jean Mahoney", "text": "still working through the threads
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:11:42Z"}, {"author": "Jean Mahoney", "text": "+1 for 2nd WGLC
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:13:09Z"}, {"author": "Martin D\u00fcrst", "text": "+1 for second (probably short) WGLC
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:13:16Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "+1
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:13:30Z"}, {"author": "Martin D\u00fcrst", "text": "+1 to Eric, this is the venue, we have to get people used to come here
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:14:50Z"}, {"author": "Brian Carpenter", "text": "That's why I want to clarify that tech details are in our remit - so that people come here
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:15:48Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@Martin D\u00fcrst @Eric Rescorla Fair point.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:15:49Z"}, {"author": "Colin Perkins", "text": "I notes that three of the four stream managers are on the call, and it's after midnight for the other
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:16:28Z"}, {"author": "Martin D\u00fcrst", "text": "Eliot's voice is breaking up for me occasionally. Anybody else hear the same?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:18:22Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Yes
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:18:28Z"}, {"author": "Jay Daley", "text": "Not a problem for me
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:18:37Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "he came through fine
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:18:43Z"}, {"author": "Jay Daley", "text": "As in - did not break u for me
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:18:46Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "I got everything.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:18:47Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "(And Russ is clipping.)
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:19:33Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "same for me, Carsten (Russ clipping)
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:20:02Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "Russ is just overdriving his mic a bit.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:20:32Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "RFCXML = format for the definitive form
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:20:43Z"}, {"author": "Robert Sparks", "text": "publication formats at the time of this writing.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:20:51Z"}, {"author": "Michael Richardson", "text": "The publication format formerly known as RFCXML :-)
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:21:23Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "yes, happy about the definition of definitive format
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:22:52Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "(format for definitive form) -- it is not the format that is definitive
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:23:23Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "sorry, that's mean to be plus one and it keeps changing +1 to a bullet point
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:23:49Z"}, {"author": "Paul Wouters", "text": "humanely readable ?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:23:51Z"}, {"author": "Jay Daley", "text": "I agree Pete, thanks
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:23:52Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "(fix this by saying definitive \u2794 source)
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:28:01Z"}, {"author": "Brian Carpenter", "text": "Repeating myself: timestamps resolve most of this possible ambiguities
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:28:44Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "timestamps help if you have all revisions
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:29:35Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Then you can sort them. You can't sort what you don't have.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:29:52Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "+1 revision control
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:31:27Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "I think we can both have version control and figure out how to materialize it into something flat that doesn't require you to know git
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:31:56Z"}, {"author": "Colin Perkins", "text": "Revision control only helps within the organisation. It doesn't help people outside.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:32:02Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "@Colin: agreed, see above.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:32:12Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "The version control keeps track of the database, then the materialized view is for those people
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:32:26Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Getting the revision that superseded all others is an important function
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:32:43Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "I think it should be accessible the same way.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:33:25Z"}, {"author": "Mirja K\u00fchlewind", "text": "I think it's important that whatever we specify in the doc does actually _not_ limit any implementation option like versioning or something else
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:33:36Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "That's what we owe the consumers of these documents
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:33:37Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Sequential numbering?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:34:30Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "git replaced SVN's sequential numbering
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:35:02Z"}, {"author": "Colin Perkins", "text": "git revisions are not useful for published documents
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:35:22Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "(current version \u2794 current revision, \u2260 current publication form)
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:36:18Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "There is a requirement for archives: readily accessible for machine processing
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:37:30Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "+1 about not saying \"version control\" in the document
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:37:37Z"}, {"author": "Martin D\u00fcrst", "text": "@Colin: Can you explain?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:38:10Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "plus 1 to \"make archived versions easily available\" without other details
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:38:20Z"}, {"author": "Jean Mahoney", "text": "comments are stripped from the final XML
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:39:00Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Jean: We have been discussing adding comments during the publication process
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:39:35Z"}, {"author": "Jean Mahoney", "text": "just answering the question about what happens now
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:39:54Z"}, {"author": "Colin Perkins", "text": "@Martin: it's obvious that RFC 3550 is newer than RFC 1889. It's not obvious that revision 4c210e9434b5b4c029e8536ad8991f3709bc3cbfa0999e951bcb4c2143c539e8 is newer than revision 2a6fc2dd09ee4be7590e9ea11a211bf45481f1326d33dd60de4cc546ece0cbff. Obviousness is useful.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:40:16Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "I think the request here is not enabling the authors to put hidden information (that is not visible in the presentation forms) into the source form (\"definitive version\")
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:41:08Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Colin: correct, git doesn't give you the comparability that SVN gave you. That does not make it \"not useful\".
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:41:55Z"}, {"author": "Brian Carpenter", "text": "@Carsten - so give the RPC discretion to delete comments, rather than a rule
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:42:02Z"}, {"author": "Pete Resnick", "text": "@Martin D\u00fcrst You may wish to re-mute.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:42:06Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Brian: I think we have to say all comments are removed during publication.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:42:26Z"}, {"author": "Colin Perkins", "text": "It does make it not useful for people outside the IETF who might be trying to figure out what document they need to read
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:42:29Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Then new ones are added.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:42:37Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Colin: not addressing a particular need \u2260 not useful
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:43:07Z"}, {"author": "Brian Carpenter", "text": "OK, so all comments by the authors are removed.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:43:08Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Yes
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:43:12Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "We might keep in colophon information
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:43:40Z"}, {"author": "Michael Richardson", "text": "What EKR said: If the HTML is acceptable, then probably any PDF generated from it is okay.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:49:49Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Yes, Paul's reasoning is basically where I ended up.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:50:03Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Michael: There are bugs in the PDF generation, some of which have suppressed content
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:50:10Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Oh, I'm sure the PDF generation is a mess.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:50:23Z"}, {"author": "Michael Richardson", "text": "@Carsten Bormann so that's a bug period, and it doesn't matter about changes in the origin text right?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:50:39Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "MCR: I can't parse this.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:51:18Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "I don't understand what \"HTML tool\" means
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:52:07Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "diff tool
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:52:12Z"}, {"author": "Michael Richardson", "text": "If there are bugs in the PDF generation that means that there have been text dropped from the PDF, then isn't this a bug, regardless of whether or not we can diff the PDF?
\nClearly, if we could easily diff the PDF, then we might find these bugs faster.
okay, so maybe we shouldn't give the lawyers PDF :-)
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:52:35Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "MCR: Yes. I do pdftotext on both files and diff the text
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:52:38Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Sure, but HTML should generally be bit-for-bit identical.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:52:41Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "Who is going to verify that we can effectively and reliably identify unexpected changes in new versions of the HTML in an automated way
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:52:57Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "If we can't verify that, we shouldn't put it in the document as a requirement.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:53:25Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "I'm not sure what you mean by \"unexpected\" change.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:53:28Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "The \"change\" may be different susceptibility to environment differences.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:53:30Z"}, {"author": "Brian Carpenter", "text": "PDF is really a funny sort of bitmap, when you come down to it. So how do we compare bitmaps?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:54:18Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "with ChatGPT? :-)
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:54:34Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "\"unexpected\": The point of this validation is to try to ensure that a new version is not different from an old version in a semantic way, yes? We could potentially make a change that we KNOW will make some sort of change to the visual output (e.g. line spacing or something) that has no impact on the semantic meaning of an RFC.
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:55:59Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "My claim is that the way that the tools should work is that they should expect that when we rerun the code that produces HTML and TXT, it produces output that is bit-for-bit identical (modulo timestamps or whatever), unless the XML changes
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:56:02Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "There will be CSS fixes in successive revisions of the tools
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:56:29Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "And that when you make a change to the code that makes visual changes, then what you do is you sample a set of documents to persuade yourself tha none of the changes were semantic
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:56:35Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "And once you've done that, you checkpoint the new output and in future check for diffs against that
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:56:55Z"}, {"author": "Mirja K\u00fchlewind", "text": "We can just get rid of the PDF format...?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:58:17Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Re: CSS, sure, but you then verify that the diffs were only the CSS, no?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:58:17Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "Like Mirja, I would get rid of PDF
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:58:30Z"}, {"author": "Jay Daley", "text": "The RPC would need to sample 370 documents to get a 95% confidence level (from a population of 10k)
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:58:52Z"}, {"author": "Colin Perkins", "text": "Does the rest of the world have these problems with PDF? If not, why not?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:59:09Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "Because they are using Microsoft Word
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:59:26Z"}, {"author": "Mirja K\u00fchlewind", "text": "nobody really cares about comparing PDFs...?
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:59:39Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "I don't see why 370 documents is a problem
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:59:41Z"}, {"author": "Eric Rescorla", "text": "For intended visual changes
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:59:57Z"}, {"author": "Alexis Rossi", "text": "i still think it's important to spot check PDFs if we are publishing them
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:59:59Z"}, {"author": "Carsten Bormann", "text": "We don't have that many documents in the new forms
", "time": "2024-02-27T22:59:59Z"}]