Minutes IETF106: nwcrg
minutes-106-nwcrg-02

Meeting Minutes Coding for efficient NetWork Communications Research Group (nwcrg) RG
Title Minutes IETF106: nwcrg
State Active
Other versions markdown
Last updated 2019-11-25

Meeting Minutes
minutes-106-nwcrg

# IETF 106 NWCRG Meeting Minutes (v1)

* [Datatracker](https://datatracker.ietf.org/rg/nwcrg/)
* [Github](https://github.com/irtf-nwcrg/rg-materials/)

## 1- nwcrg@ietf106-hackathon (Saturday and Sunday, Nov. 16-17, 2019)

* [Hackathon wiki](https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/106hackathon)
* [Github swif-codec repo](https://github.com/irtf-nwcrg/swif-codec)

## 2- nwcrg meeting@ietf106 (Thursday, Nov. 21, 2019, Afternoon session I)
Notes taken by Nicolas K., Cedric A. and Oumaima A. Thanks to all of them!

#### 00- Welcome, administrative and general matters (Chairs)

##### Situation of the "NC for CCN/NDN: requirements and challenges" I-D
Not presented today.
Vincent Roca (VR):  Dave, you mentioned at ietf104 that it would be fine to
first have a discussion at ICNRG before coming back to RGLC. Did the ICNRG
group make any progress? Dave Oran (DO): You are putting me on the spot - I
have got no feedback on ICNRG on the document. Vincent Roca (VR): Let us know
when you think a RGLC is possible. DO: We gave ICNRG one month, and maybe move
on no matter. Of course, I need confirmation from my co-chairs.

##### Situation of the RLNC I-Ds: what's next?

Not presented today.
The authors asked the chairs to ask for feedback from the group.
VR: A question for the group is whether we should adopt I-Ds as research group
document? It would make sense for me. Marie-José Montpetit (MJM): I support
Vincent. A goal of the group was also to have a document for existing solutions
(BATS, RLC, RLNC, Tetrys, etc.). Emmanuel Lochin (EL): regarding TETRYS
document, Jonathan (Detchart) added some text recently and the authors do not
think there is much more needed. MJM: You should publish that updated version
so that the group can adopt it. EL: Is there interest for the group for the
document? MJM: This is in the charter, yes.

##### News from the FECFRAME-ext/RLC/TinyMT32 standardisation (TSVWG)

VR (Slides): Just waiting for final approval, the documents are ready.

#### 01- Sliding Window FEC (SWiF) codec hackathon feedback (Vincent Roca)

VR thanks Oumaima and Cedric who both made major contributions to the codec
since previous IETF. MJM emphasized that the hackthon is really a great
opportunity to see what other people are doing in the other groups, because the
rest of the week we are all scattered in many groups.

### Updates of existing works:

#### 02- Update of the "Coding techniques for satellite systems" I-D (Nicolas
Kuhn)
[https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nwcrg-network-coding-satellites]

All the comments from Lloyd Wood and Vincent Roca have been answered (see
details in github I-D repository for Lloyd’s comments). Some satellite
vocabulary (satellite "payload" and "FECFRAME" in the satellite context) may
create confusion at IETF and these terms have been removed. Authors think the
document is ready for another round of Last Call.

VR: There are still editorials issues, volunteers are welcome. Anyway MJM and
VR will read it again. VR, as document shepherd, will take care of this.

#### 03- Update of the deployment of BATS code (Raymond W. Yeung)
[https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yang-nwcrg-bats/]

Raymond (RY) presents updates on the current use-case (smart lampposts) for
BATS codes.

EL: (slide 8) We know that TCP is collapsing in such use cases. Do you use TCP?
RY: We use UDP.
EL: There is no feedback and no fairness. If you share multiple flows, what
happens? RY: In our experiments, we have only one flow. EL: So do you use
congestion control or something like this? RY: There is only one link in the
network, and it links lamppost with each other. EL: Is it within the
application protocol (if is there an application protocol), or is it added to
UDP? RY: Let's take it offline. VR: What is your target with this I-D? RY: We
would like to have a standard describing BATS. VR: This is a research group, so
it will not be an IETF standard but it can be published as an informational or
experimental RFC. DO: Are there any IPR disclosure in terms of rights? VR: We
know from the beginning that there are IPRs with BATS solution, RY has always
been very clear on this. DO: What are the property rights when they use it for
IRTF work (i.e., the licensing conditions)? Colin Perkins (CP): the important
question is: has an IPR disclosure been made at IETF? If not, you have to make
one first (see: [https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/]). MJM: Having a list of
existing FEC solutions is one goal of the group - that is what people outside
the group ask for. Provide the IPR disclosure, then we'll continue and ask for
document adoption.

#### 04- Update of the "RLC FEC Scheme for QUIC" I-D (Vincent Roca)
[https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-roca-nwcrg-rlc-fec-scheme-for-quic]

VR presents (without chair hat).

Carsten Bormann (CB): Do you have an intuition about the choice of E (i.e., the
symbol size)? VR: (slide 8) the E value is the symbol size value, it is
something important in practice. Having a large E while incoming source packets
are all small leads to producing large repair symbols which adds overhead. A
smaller E value is preferable, in particular for variable size incoming
packets. However, a too small E value increases the number of variables in the
underlying linear system. Hence more processing overhead. There is a balance to
find which is use-case dependent and I don’t have any definite answer. EL: Are
you piggybacking the repair symbols at the end of the packet? VR: Repair
symbols are transported in REPAIR frames. They are sent in dedicated packets.
QUIC original packet are not modified (except for the addition of a SOURCE-FPI
frame). Emile Stephan (ES): Do you plan to write an extension to QUIC? VR: Our
objective is to be in position to convince the QUIC WG that FEC can be useful
to QUIC. Doing work in NWCRG enables to make progress on the design and to
continue research on benefits it brings to QUIC. We are also waiting for QUIC
v1 to be done, then we will decide what is feasible. MJM: the same Louvain team
has a modular QUIC implementation that enables dynamic extensions to the
protocol (see their SIGCOMM'19 paper). That could be another approach. ES: Why
is this specific to QUIC? VR: The signaling and the QUIC packet to source
symbol mapping are specific for QUIC. The rest is common to RLC specification.
ES: It would be more general with UDP. MJM: QUIC is not UDP. VR: With FECFRAME
(see soon to be published RFC 8680), you can apply FEC to UDP flows. CB: [about
LOOPS] We have something very similar, but the details of course are different.
VR: you just design FECFRAME to apply it to the use case. Not a single FEC
scheme for every use case. EL: Adding FEC to QUIC is different than adding FEC
to UDP. On the repair format, is it optional? Is there a specific header for
the repair frame? Is the header different whether I use optional symbol fields
or not? VR: The repair header is specified in this I-D, and is the first part
of the REPAIR frame. It is then followed by one or more repair symbols. EL: Is
it expected to work half-duplex and full-duplex? VR: There is no issue in doing
both I think. ES: Do you need to have the session key to add coding? VR: No,
everything happens before encryption.

### New works:

#### 05- "Coding and congestion control in transport" I-D (Nicolas Kuhn)
[https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuhn-coding-congestion-transport]

Michael Welzl (MW): About the statement that the receiver MUST inform the
sender about recovered packets. Do you always want to inform you were able to
recover a packet? It's an unreliable data transfer so you don't really need to
inform the sender about recovered packets. NK: The smart things are at the
sender because the sender knows more, in particular if it's unreliable. MW: I
understand but I think it may be too much. If it's unreliable I don't care
about retransmitting. NK: Okay, but it's all about a signal used to convey the
information to the sender and let the sender adapt. You could also use a SACK
to inform about what has been lost. With a new type of frame in QUIC, you could
do that. For the moment it's just a basic statement on who knows what, and who
indicates what to whom. CB: "Recovered" may not necessarily mean the packet has
been lost, it may just be delayed. NK: If we want to go further in this
document, this is the kind of things we need to put warnings on. DO: Fine, but
you miss the opposite case: how many repair packets are you sending that turn
out to be useless? It's a matter of measuring the usefulness of repair traffic.
It gives an extra degree of freedom as you may want to play at the congestion
control level or at the coding rate level. NK: Good point, that's the kind of
topic we need to gather in the document. There are several corner cases that
are very important. This point is about how you add coding inside congestion
control. With this claim, we want to be generic. Spencer Dawkins (SD): Thank
you for starting this work, you are at -00 and you have already lots of
interests. This is good sign and I know people who need it. MW: I don't
understand intuition. I think it does not make sense to do something half
reasonable. NK: We need something in-between. We need to discuss this type of
situation and find consensus in the group if possible. SD: We discussed in many
RFC congestion control. I encourage you to include scalable congestion control
and the IETF history on the reaction to ECN signals. EL: Good point. I want to
point out there is an antagonism between using erasure coding (temptation to
add redundancy if there are losses) and congestion control (it reduces
transmission rate in case of losses). How we are going to manage both? That's
what we want to discuss. VR: The goal of the document is not to solve all the
problems; the goal is to bring some light in this domain. CB: Why do you want
to do congestion control? The obvious answer is you want to protect the
network. But you may want to have TCP-fairness, so you need to be explicit
about what your objectives are. NK: My objective is to have QUIC working on
satellite links. We have issues in our network when we have losses. So, we need
to manage congestion control while integrating FEC in QUIC, end-to-end. If we
don't manage to find simple solutions here, FEC won't be deployed in QUIC
because many people don't like it. CB: There's perhaps a 3rd motivation,
getting by the IESG. Do you want to be fair or not? NK: The tunnels are out of
the scope of the document, so we need TCP Fairness. DO: this is an RG, looking
at the coding. It would be really be nice to put in the document that one goal
is to guide the researchers to give some guidance on what points need to be
confirmed. Because lots of of people could spend lots of time on useless
research for wrong ideas. MJM/VR: This subject has long been a key topic for
our group, thank you very much for the initiative. Does anybody object in
having this a RG Item document? (nobody disagrees). Confirm on list.

#### 06- Getting and Exchanging Decoding State Information (Cedric Adjih)

VR: Thanks. This is in parts an implementation specific matter. We have a
flexible parameter setter and getter that uses a type-length-value approach. It
could be used to have this implementation specific extension without adding
extra complexity to the core API. Let's discuss this offline.

### Relationship with other groups:

#### 07- About LOOPS (Local Optimizations on Path Segments) (Carsten Bormann)
[https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-welzl-loops-gen-info]

CB: Who has been in the LOOPS side meeting? Half of the people in the room
(approx 10/20) did. DO: Is reordering one of the things you are not doing? CB:
We may do reordering. DO: Is it a requirement to take incoming disorder packets
and reorder them in the tunnel? CB: We do not know yet. MJM: With or without
chair hat, how can we collaborate? CB: We look at outputs from the research
group, based on specific assumptions, and we will have questions. MJM: We
indeed have strong opinions on the different FEC. CB: I guess the WG asks
specific questions, that may end up being research questions. EL: There are
many research issues here. With tunnels, you may aggregate flows and the
protection may be per-flow or on the aggregate. I do not have the answer for
that. You may have different types of flows and different coding schemes for
them. You may end up having head of line blocking. CB: We will have issues in
identifying the different flows and may not encounter this issue. Can you send
the results to the list? EL: Sure. MJM: If you do that, copy both NWCRG/LOOPS
lists. CP: You list a bunch of FEC schemes with different characteristics. When
we worked on video, we started with a simple scheme and went into more
complexity. Do you expect the same thing? You may end up having different FEC
solutions for different use-cases. CB: We may want to dynamically change the
FEC scheme that is used. MJM: Add a specific signaling to detail the code that
you want to use. CP: You may also have ACK mechanisms that report different
things depending on the FEC mechanism that is used. MJM: You may want the same
type of interaction between NWCRG and LOOPS as between T2TRG and CORE.

To conclude: NWCRG will met during ietf107, hackathon included.