Minutes interim-2022-eimpactws-04: Mon 14:00
minutes-interim-2022-eimpactws-04-202212121400-00

IAB E-Impact Workshop Session 4: Next Steps

5:52 am - 7:33 am  Monday, December 12, 2022 | (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US &
Canada)

Cedric Westphal
heb
Hosein Badran
Maya Richman
Eve Schooler
Jari Arkko
Safiqul
Dom Robinson Greening of Streaming
John Preuß Mattsson
Michael Welzl
Lars Eggert
Bruce Nordman2
Marisol Palmero Amador
Qin Wu
Stefano Salsano
Tirumaleswar Reddy
Eric Voit
Martin Flack
Henk Birkholz he/him
Nina Lövehagen
Ali Rezaki
Cindy Morgan
Snezana Mitrovic
Eric Vyncke
Rob Wilton
Selome
Chiara Lombardo - CNIT
Marisol Palmero Amador DX80
Louis Navarre
Jiankang Yao
Beatrice Siccardi
Fieke
Colin Perkins
Pascal Thubert
Toerless Eckert
Jan Lindblad
Bruce
Vesna Manojlovic
Esther Roure Vila
Carsten Bormann
Daniel Schien
Greg Mirsky
Romain Jacob
Mohamed Boucadair
Mike Mattera
Eric Vyncke Desk Pro
Brendan Moran
Carlos Pignataro
Chris Adams
Wim Vanderbauwhede
Per Andersson
Gonzalo Salgueiro
Suresh Krishnan
Jukka Manner
Alex Clemm
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson

WEBVTT

1
Jari Arkko 00:11:33.819 --> 00:11:41.164
This is the last of the main sessions we can talk about the future developments
and next steps.

2
Jari Arkko 00:11:42.454 --> 00:12:02.434
And, um, there's some ground rules that I, I think you've seen by now so I
don't plan to repeating them, but please continue to keep them in mind you
doing very well. And everybody's been explaining very carefully. Uh, I think
it's been very understandable to everybody. So, that's that's great despite our
backgrounds.

3
Jari Arkko 00:12:03.935 --> 00:12:23.825
And, uh, goals for today, um, there's a little bit of a look back at the
previous sessions and then we'll talk about potential future developments, the
different areas we'll talk about conclusions and next steps, that's a
discussion with then also talk about that workshop next steps more concretely.

4
Jari Arkko 00:12:25.114 --> 00:12:45.724
Rfc coming out on, on each of the workshops that will do that again, but not
only that we'll need to discuss, um, or we continue and, uh, as usual, uh, uh,
slides from the beginning are useful reminder on what can we do and what are
the potential classes of controls.

5
Jari Arkko 00:12:46.385 --> 00:12:52.565
What we know, or don't know, what can we do in terms of improvements and what
might be the next steps.

6
Jari Arkko 00:12:54.874 --> 00:13:15.334
And, uh, today's agenda, so indeed, there's some summaries by myself, uh,
calling them eve on the 3 different sessions we've had so far. Um, we have 5
talks, I think, on potential future development areas, um, on cognitive
networking.

7
Jari Arkko 00:13:15.574 --> 00:13:23.794
Mobile app works, uh, what we should not be doing. It's an interesting item
always. And then, uh, and I.

8
Jari Arkko 00:13:23.914 --> 00:13:44.944
Process and, uh, I'm gonna try and ask you guys to be brief and to the point,
uh, we don't have a huge amount of time, um, given the number of, um, talks on
the agenda. Uh, if you want to actually leave some time for discussion. So, he
takes too much time I might actually try and cut you off. Then we'll have some
discussion mostly about.

9
Jari Arkko 00:13:45.244 --> 00:13:58.864
What what is the conclusion or what should we be doing concretely? And, uh, and
then I'm gonna reserve it just a little bit of time at the end to talk about
the next steps work supplies, um, calling anything to add.

10
Colin Perkins 00:14:01.294 --> 00:14:06.844
Uh, no, I don't think I have anything to add. I think that's a good summary of,
uh, the plan is, thank you.

11
Jari Arkko 00:14:08.194 --> 00:14:11.794
Yeah, and, um, any, any agenda bash otherwise.

12
Jari Arkko 00:14:16.175 --> 00:14:35.705
Okay, I guess not. So, we'll, we'll keep going. So, um, 1st, let's, I will
actually describe, um, a brief summary of session 1, which was, I thought,
really, really interesting, because we had tons of, um, yeah, basically
different viewpoints. I think at least for me, some of that was was really.

13
Jari Arkko 00:14:35.709 --> 00:14:56.854
So, it was very refreshing. Um, but I didn't spend a little bit of time
beforehand, try and figure out like, you know, if we look at anything in this
space, what can we learn from it? And, like, what other things I should have on
my slides, or or the notepad, you came up with, like, this template.

14
Jari Arkko 00:14:56.884 --> 00:15:17.944
Since useful tools, actions that we can actually take and goals that we should
have and, and the really interesting stuff, all sorts of the some research
problems. That clearly are not things that we can engineering wise do today.
But what would be fun if they, they resolved and we could topics for people's
students to go and do.

15
Jari Arkko 00:15:18.010 --> 00:15:19.385
Thesis or something.

16
Jari Arkko 00:15:20.974 --> 00:15:41.734
The paper, uh, measurement, so, for session 1, I tried to fill this in. Um, and
there's plenty of things. Of course, I'm not going to go through this in
detail, but, you know, the, the main feeling is that this is so much bigger
than our tech obviously. Of course. But, you know, maybe.

17
Jari Arkko 00:15:42.305 --> 00:16:03.035
For all us, maybe for me in particular, it wasn't like, necessarily obvious
before this workshop, but that's that's the case. And, uh, that influences all
parts of society and there's a bunch of non technical things, uh, also involved
business, summarize them 3rd part inequality uh, externalize.

18
Jari Arkko 00:16:03.694 --> 00:16:24.244
Uh, just this or lack there off and so on. Um, so that that's a good thing to
keep in mind. Um, so this is really broad and also, um, I talked a little bit
about the improvements how they come in different forms and, um, we should keep
that in mind not to get stuck on like, the thing that I control that are gonna
improve and so, everything with.

19
Jari Arkko 00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:27.364
That's not the case. Probably we need multiple things.

20
Jari Arkko 00:16:28.510 --> 00:16:49.655
And then useful tools, and this is like, a slightly different from maybe like,
if we look at some of the other assessments, the useful tools, I can help you
like this tech. But but here is like software things like solidarity and
awareness and sufficiency of, you know, what, what we, um, what we have.

21
Jari Arkko 00:16:49.684 --> 00:17:10.534
Um, or we should be happy with what we have, and how we should make that
actually left and and serve our needs rather than just chase the numbers. Good,
good things to think about. Um, and also, um, not waiting for the perfect
solution. That that's always bad for almost anything and particularly through
of this.

22
Jari Arkko 00:17:11.104 --> 00:17:31.354
Things we can do on the right side. I have some goals and 1 of them is
continuous improvement. So that's a pair. Uh, of course, there's also some more
concrete, hard things like this, you know, user, renewable energy in, in the
systems that we run. And, uh, and also.

23
Jari Arkko 00:17:32.014 --> 00:17:52.984
We've talked about actions that we should take, I think, from session 1, in
particular, it was pretty clear that since we're not alone in this, we should
perhaps be connected somehow and not not to work in isolation, but be aware of
what's happening elsewhere. And what the demands are possibilities.

24
Jari Arkko 00:17:53.165 --> 00:18:14.195
Working together and so on, and then the goals and some continuous improvement
also, but also I'm a little bit moving away from this chasing bigger numbers.
Or if I put it bigger and more bloated, the bit pages every year, to actually
increase usefulness of whatever we do with to, to, or.

25
Jari Arkko 00:18:14.260 --> 00:18:30.095
Internet usefulness to me, and to the society at large and also declining
emissions. I think that's been fairly clear that there's some, some demand for
reduction and not just staying where we are.

26
Jari Arkko 00:18:32.854 --> 00:18:53.074
But, at the same time, not compromising on this usefulness and then bunch of
things that we could do research on. Um, 1 thing that was mentioned was effects
beyond energy. That energy of course, very high profile. But that's not the
only thing is like, really serious effects from some of the raw material uses
and so on. So.

27
Jari Arkko 00:18:54.485 --> 00:19:02.525
We do need to think about that and that probably needs more research and or
maybe that's available somewhere. But I'm not aware of, um.

28
Jari Arkko 00:19:04.115 --> 00:19:24.335
It it struck me as, um, some of this carbon awareness stuff, uh, might benefit
from thinking about, like, how can you do that in a sort of a multi value and,
um, you know, uh, variable trustworthiness a world where you need to learn
something from the other side of the planet, but you don't know if you can
trust it. How do we do that?

29
Jari Arkko 00:19:25.145 --> 00:19:45.905
This case might be useful thing to think about, uh, and also business model
impacts. Don't have a lot of data on that. I think, um, for instance, what's
the cost of advertising? Um, yeah. Um, anybody else wanna add something or take
away or dispute.

30
Jari Arkko 00:19:45.934 --> 00:19:47.164
Something that's on the slide.

31
Jari Arkko 00:20:02.165 --> 00:20:12.065
Yeah, I don't see anybody it's something, but the microphone so, um, yeah,
maybe maybe that's it for this summary. And then Colleen, perhaps you take over
and discuss the next system.

32
Carlos Pignataro 00:20:12.125 --> 00:20:22.445
Yeti 1, uh, this is Carlos 11. very quick. Uh, way in which I interpret, uh, in
assembly. Early sessions is that is 2.

33
Carlos Pignataro 00:20:22.684 --> 00:20:43.504
Really number 1 is that there's no 1 size fits all there's no single silver
bullet for this and, uh, you know, problem understanding as well. A solution is
to come in a lot of different, uh, domains dimensions area that's number 1 and,
uh, either number 2. I feel that there's also.

34
Carlos Pignataro 00:20:43.864 --> 00:20:56.734
Uh, you know, we all bring just because this is multidisciplinary, we bring our
preconceptions on, uh, you know, what is the high order bits and I think.

35
Carlos Pignataro 00:20:57.994 --> 00:21:18.964
Going back to your last point on research, what is really the impact of
actually making change, uh, in particular areas we all go quickly to energy and
to carbon. And, uh, and, uh, there's actually immense amount of data. Um, is
not the same for a core.

36
Carlos Pignataro 00:21:19.024 --> 00:21:39.184
Rather than for a mobile endpoint, uh, you know, even if it is carbon
contribution during the overall life cycle. Uh, so so I feel that understanding
is also, you know, gonna benefit how inserts into this into these bigger, uh,
problems.

37
Carlos Pignataro 00:21:40.175 --> 00:21:41.735
Contribute to the solutions.

38
Jari Arkko 00:21:43.805 --> 00:21:44.735
Good points. Thank you.

39
Jari Arkko 00:21:51.484 --> 00:21:52.384
All right Colin.

40
Colin Perkins 00:21:53.104 --> 00:21:53.464
Chris.

41
Jari Arkko 00:21:53.614 --> 00:21:56.314
Oh, yeah, sorry.

42
Chris Adams 00:21:58.804 --> 00:22:19.534
Thanks thanks. There was 1 thing that, uh, I kind of took away from when I was
looking through this 1 thing that, uh, was possibly some research that he's
doing is to get an idea of, let's say that you were to provide some more
efficient technology for this, either through the form of protocols at
different hardware I feel like if we.

43
Chris Adams 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:40.744
Have a particular trajectory that we need to be on that has been outlined by
the and other groups, like, having emissions by 2030, then it kind of suggest
the need for some scenarios and some idea of how quickly replacements of
existing inefficient stuff might need to be necessary or what assumptions we
might make about how quick.

44
Chris Adams 00:22:40.774 --> 00:23:01.714
We think that the energy itself will be becoming less harmful in terms of
carbon emissions for this. Because if you don't have any, if you don't have any
assumptions here, it's going to be quite difficult to work against the thing
that might be worth. Actually, I was really thinking about, is that other
industries you have to decarbonised, they've basically said we're going to try
and.

45
Chris Adams 00:23:01.954 --> 00:23:23.044
By this date, we think it's going to cost this much and that that works out to
be a rough idea of how much investment maybe may be required so for context,
uh, between now and 2050, the aviation industry has said it's going to cost
this many 1Trillion dollars we reckon to replace all the stock and switch to
green abbreviation and that works out to be a figure of like a 100.

46
Chris Adams 00:23:23.074 --> 00:23:44.194
28Billion U. S. dollars year on year between now and 2050, if you have some
numbers like that, then at least it allows folks to actually take a feed into
some of the existing discussions. That's the kind of the top, 28, and the top
29th where people say, well, we need this much to actually stay on track for
what the science has told us to be doing. And I think this is something that
would.

47
Chris Adams 00:23:44.224 --> 00:23:57.634
Be really, really helpful when speaking to both policy makers, but also private
SEC to say, well, we need to raise this money to make this possible. Even if
we're just going to focus on training people to use the existing infrastructure
much more efficiently.

48
Jari Arkko 00:23:59.464 --> 00:24:05.224
A really good point. Uh, I agree that that's that's a useful thing to have. And
and also that we don't have.

49
Jari Arkko 00:24:05.434 --> 00:24:09.484
Today, I'm trying to add these things as as, as we hear them.

50
Jari Arkko 00:24:12.544 --> 00:24:13.084
Excellent.

51
Jari Arkko 00:24:20.885 --> 00:24:23.255
Yeah, and now maybe calling. Mm. Hmm.

52
Colin Perkins 00:24:24.635 --> 00:24:28.715
Uh, yes do you have my slight or do you want me to share it?

53
Jari Arkko 00:24:29.195 --> 00:24:30.185
Maybe you sir.

54
Colin Perkins 00:24:32.585 --> 00:24:33.575
Stop sharing.

55
Jari Arkko 00:24:34.565 --> 00:24:34.955
Yeah.

56
Colin Perkins 00:24:49.059 --> 00:24:51.304
All right is that working? Can people see my slate.

57
Hosein Badran 00:24:53.254 --> 00:24:54.244
Yes, yes, we can.

58
Colin Perkins 00:24:55.294 --> 00:25:10.054
Okay, so, uh, I can't see the hands being raised so if you have questions,
please do jump in. Um, so so, session 2 was very much about, uh, what we know
and that there were free talks, uh, initially by, uh, then Daniel.

59
Colin Perkins 00:25:10.384 --> 00:25:31.234
And then jen's, um, um, Michael's talked focused on what we know about the
energy usage and what information exists about that usage. Um, it's pretty
clear that there have been, um, a bunch of studies conducted, which are at
best, uh, misleading.

60
Colin Perkins 00:25:31.745 --> 00:25:45.485
Some of them are perhaps outright misinformation, and there's been many
articles that are getting a lot of interest, uh, being being widely spread that
are promoting misleading estimates of the energy usage of the network.

61
Colin Perkins 00:25:46.954 --> 00:26:07.984
Um, I think WH, what I took away from Michael's team was that there will be
benefits in both, um, getting accurate measurements. And also in developing a
communication strategy. Um, some way of ensuring that the information which we
have some confidence in is is, uh, disseminated to perhaps train Council. Some
of the, the more misleading information that's out there.

62
Colin Perkins 00:26:10.355 --> 00:26:29.135
Uh, the 2nd, topic was from Dan, um, who just discussed how to estimate the
energy usage in the carbon footprint of the networks. Um, he spoke about the
different factors influencing the energy usage. Um, some discussion about how
energy proportionality is, uh, pretty poor in the networks. Um, how the, the.

63
Colin Perkins 00:26:29.195 --> 00:26:50.285
Usage doesn't necessarily correspond to the, the amount of traffic, um, and,
um, about some of the, the limited impact of, um, um, marginal emissions and so
on, and, um, carbon intensity of the energy supply and its impact. So, uh, some
of the interesting points to me, if this.

64
Colin Perkins 00:26:50.319 --> 00:27:11.284
Discussion were about the, the upgrade cycle, uh, the potential for P. uh, I
think mentioned there's peak shaving trying to shift or defer some of the
traffic, uh, to to avoid the peak times to avoid, um, the the usage getting to
the point where upgrades can be needed. Uh, so at least delay the, the need to
upgrade the infrastructure to switch to a higher capacity.

65
Colin Perkins 00:27:11.854 --> 00:27:32.314
Higher power infrastructure and then the final talk was jen's talking about
some of the measurement data. Um, and I think that this 1 was interesting and,
uh, perhaps a little bit controversial in the group. Uh, his data seemed to
show that while that the amount of data being used is growing rapidly. Um.

66
Colin Perkins 00:27:32.619 --> 00:27:42.724
Consumption of data centers themselves has been close to flat and the energy
consumption of the networks is growing pretty slowly in comparison to the rate
is being used.

67
Colin Perkins 00:27:44.914 --> 00:27:50.254
Um, most of the discussion in the session was around the, these leads and
measurements, um.

68
Colin Perkins 00:27:50.975 --> 00:28:11.975
A bunch of concern, uh, that, um, while I'm flat to slow group is better than
we had, perhaps expected, uh, flexible group and energy usage experts better
than we'd expected. Um, the current emissions are still too high. And there's
also some concern that, um, we, we don't necessarily understand why the
consumption is flat and.

69
Colin Perkins 00:28:12.304 --> 00:28:26.614
What are the engineering efforts, which are causing it to stay that way? Um,
and how to accelerate those engineering efforts to beat the curve. So, rather
than having a flat or slowly growing energy consumption have declining energy
consumption over time.

70
Colin Perkins 00:28:27.635 --> 00:28:31.715
Uh, and it's not clear what headroom we have, and how we can, uh, you know.

71
Colin Perkins 00:28:33.364 --> 00:28:54.394
Move on to sort of beat the curve for rather than just keeping up with the
traffic. Uh, and there's some discussion at the end about, um, what we don't
know, and they seem to relate to, um, breaking down the energy use, um, by
different applications, different parts of the network, et cetera. Um, rather
than just the overall aggregate measures. So, we can start to understand.

72
Colin Perkins 00:28:54.544 --> 00:29:02.074
Parts of the system we need to optimize to reduce the, the usage and I think
that's that's my summary of session 2.

73
Colin Perkins 00:29:11.074 --> 00:29:13.354
You want to have anything else to add on this session.

74
Colin Perkins 00:29:27.064 --> 00:29:32.014
Okay, I don't see any questions.

75
Eve Schooler 00:29:37.625 --> 00:29:38.255
Share.

76
Jari Arkko 00:29:39.155 --> 00:29:39.965
Go ahead.

77
Colin Perkins 00:29:40.055 --> 00:29:40.805
Yep, go ahead.

78
Eve Schooler 00:29:41.225 --> 00:29:41.585
Huh.

79
Eve Schooler 00:29:47.074 --> 00:29:57.544
Okay, so session 3 was yesterday and, um, we, oh, maybe let me go into full
screen mode.

80
Eve Schooler 00:30:01.174 --> 00:30:20.314
We had 5 terrific talks and some great conversation. The 1st, of which, um,
centered around the metrics. Um, Alex gave an incredibly thorough assessment of
the metrics needed. Um, and then we had, uh, Suresh giving some.

81
Eve Schooler 00:30:20.764 --> 00:30:41.524
Thoughts on solutions and trade offs with Russ, following that by, including a
routing very detailed routing perspective. Louise spoke to us about the
prospects for multicast. Brendan spoke about data formats and, um, I felt.

82
Eve Schooler 00:30:41.559 --> 00:31:02.704
There were many takeaways in the discussions, just a few of which I've
highlighted here. Um, as I stated, I thought that Alex, um, Alex has talked to
the great job to sort of categorize the metrics needed for devices. Paths flows
in the overall network and point.

83
Eve Schooler 00:31:02.734 --> 00:31:23.854
To some concrete next steps that are available to us to get started, like, Yang
models and protocol extensions. Um, the 2nd, talk was interesting because it
very clearly pointed out to us that while we focus on scopes, 1 and 2, that
scoped.

84
Eve Schooler 00:31:23.860 --> 00:31:44.975
Which is the usage of all the equipment that many of our companies produce that
far eclipses the totals and the sum of the totals of scopes 1 and 2, we should
also consider some inclusion of what's being what's emergent as a scope for,
which is kind of.

85
Eve Schooler 00:31:45.009 --> 00:32:06.154
A hand print effect, which is what might be the savings of using technology
towards others footprints. Um, so that was kind of an interesting perspective.
I thought and another point that was made was around how there's so many
sustainability.

86
Eve Schooler 00:32:06.159 --> 00:32:27.304
The best practices that perhaps we should begin to collect them into a
document. There's no, you know, we should start doing that sort of straight
away when we got to the presentation about about routing. What was interesting
was, you know, Russ pointing out to.

87
Eve Schooler 00:32:27.334 --> 00:32:48.454
That merging, it's really important for us to merge multiple metrics into 1
because when we start to do these joint optimizations it's a well known NP
complete problem to have multiple metrics. And so the convergence into 1 metric
is something we're going to have to take strategic.

88
Eve Schooler 00:32:48.484 --> 00:33:03.274
It was also interesting to hear from the control plane perspective. The levers
we have to either reduce to remove redundant links or remove equipment.

89
Eve Schooler 00:33:05.705 --> 00:33:06.785
Is there a question.

90
Eve Schooler 00:33:09.545 --> 00:33:28.775
Okay, um, anyway, that we have several levers for reducing power usage and all
of which can be done in a manner that is time variant, which was a topic that
came up multiple times yesterday. And, um, in previous sessions, um, around,
you know, if we know beforehand.

91
Eve Schooler 00:33:30.004 --> 00:33:50.434
That links will come and go that we can schedule uh, we can have a more robust
routing algorithm, uh, that can schedule, um, its knowledge to match the coming
and going of predictable behaviors about, like, these links. Um, it was
interesting to get an update on.

92
Eve Schooler 00:33:50.974 --> 00:34:11.644
Multicast that it's perhaps time to reconsider its usage because in the past,
we have focused on the simplicity of the algorithm, rather than the
efficiencies of the algorithms and that many of the problems that were
considered old challenges have new solutions.

93
Eve Schooler 00:34:11.674 --> 00:34:32.104
Most importantly, creating a stateless multicast. So router state was a problem
in the past for the wide area networks and also that the performance of
implementing multitasking user space is now competitive.

94
Eve Schooler 00:34:32.824 --> 00:34:53.944
Or is at least reasonable enough, then, as compared to say, being required to
do this in kernel space. And I also found it very instructive that in multiple
of the talks yesterday, there was the emphasis though, we should be reusing
techniques that we have.

95
Eve Schooler 00:34:53.975 --> 00:35:15.095
Experience with from these more constrained contests, constrained networking
context as well as most importantly, the wireless context where we do have to
already consider low power and that we should remember that at the very edges
of our topology are wireless.

96
Eve Schooler 00:35:15.754 --> 00:35:35.944
It was fascinating also to hear about data formats who knew that, that there's
typically a 30% energy reduction when using binary over text. It was good to
see the quantification, you know, intuitively. You would assume that but it was
good to see a number.

97
Eve Schooler 00:35:36.724 --> 00:35:57.124
Uh, also appreciated that we heard, you know, we were encouraged to stop
thinking of the network as an infinite resource, and therefore, along with that
stop ignoring data formats. Because even if you have these small reductions in
the aggregate, they add up and the example was given that in contrast to video,
which we know is the.

98
Eve Schooler 00:35:57.454 --> 00:36:18.544
Main type of traffic on the network and accounts for a large percentage. Maybe
90% plus of traffic on the network. We still, we sent emails all the time and
the what? Ifs of if we had a Super representation of mine for all those mind
encoded emails that we're sending every day. Um, many times.

99
Eve Schooler 00:36:19.354 --> 00:36:39.634
Uh, and, uh, there was also some in the discussion at the very end of the
presentations concession that we recognize that at least the current state of
monitoring is not very efficient in and of itself. Um, but we've got to start
somewhere and that.

100
Eve Schooler 00:36:39.700 --> 00:37:00.365
We, you know, it's important for us to understand approximately where energy is
consumed to understand where the high impact places for us to focus our
attention, including a monitoring itself. Eventually those are some of my
takeaways, but I would welcome others to jump in and contribute their
impressions.

101
Eve Schooler 00:37:03.304 --> 00:37:08.674
And I, of course, cannot see the people's hands being raised. So please help
me. I.

102
Eve Schooler 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:11.374
Speaking out.

103
Jari Arkko 00:37:16.774 --> 00:37:34.684
I don't see any raised hands either. I just had a 1 comment myself, that, that,
uh, that the, um, TVR type of time varying. Um, actually in my mind, at least
it's sort of a part of a bigger thing or.

104
Jari Arkko 00:37:34.714 --> 00:37:55.834
It's a related thing, that is about ability to handle things on a particular
time and then sleep at other times. And that's not just the routing thing.
It's, it's sort of goes across implementations and technologies and and and
protocols and design of link layers and details of link players.

105
Jari Arkko 00:37:55.864 --> 00:38:14.884
And so on so, in, uh, for for instance, there's some, some details that lead to
very different power users. Um, some savings can be done. If I see that. We're
not possible in 14 because of these things. Um, maybe, that's the thing. That
could be also not that.

106
Eve Schooler 00:38:15.994 --> 00:38:16.354
Okay.

107
Colin Perkins 00:38:23.045 --> 00:38:23.615
Hello.

108
Vesna Manojlovic 00:38:23.855 --> 00:38:40.235
I was just curious. Um, I liked what I heard, uh, when you said that, uh,
documenting best current practices in sustainability is was 1 of the
conclusions, but I didn't see it on your slide. Did I miss it or? So.

109
Eve Schooler 00:38:40.235 --> 00:38:42.155
Was there here let me let me.

110
Eve Schooler 00:38:48.334 --> 00:38:49.414
Hmm.

111
Eve Schooler 00:38:54.725 --> 00:39:04.295
Yeah, um, what I was saying was here, um, the sustainability considerations
should be put into a document.

112
Vesna Manojlovic 00:39:04.535 --> 00:39:09.035
Oh, yes, okay. Volunteers to help out to that. Uh, I can help.

113
Eve Schooler 00:39:09.245 --> 00:39:10.295
Absolutely.

114
Suresh Krishnan 00:39:10.924 --> 00:39:30.214
So, um, I think, uh, E, like, you know, if you're talking to my like, about my
talk, right in this 1, right? So, at some point, I was like, not just to do
the, um, the best practices, but also talk about the trade offs. Right? I think
that was like, you know, 1 thing I kind of wanted to add because there might be
other things that for people to consider. So, like, not just say, hey, this is
good.

115
Eve Schooler 00:39:30.454 --> 00:39:31.144
And.

116
Suresh Krishnan 00:39:31.294 --> 00:39:31.714
This is.

117
Suresh Krishnan 00:39:31.744 --> 00:39:52.804
Do you need to kind of, um, I would say, balance it against, right? So, I, I
think a lot of the things we saw, um, have some kind of trade offs, it's not
like, always like a, um, green thing is event. Always. Right? So, I think
that's something I kind of wanted to emphasize a little bit on, but I think if,
like, summarize it extremely well, right? Like, and I would love to have some
help on that. If.

118
Suresh Krishnan 00:39:53.195 --> 00:39:56.045
Um, people want to help, like, out certainly help writing something.

119
Eve Schooler 00:39:57.275 --> 00:40:07.265
Yeah, and in fact, I think that comment about sustainability considerations was
something that you said later in the session, but it seemed to weave into your
talk as well.

120
Suresh Krishnan 00:40:07.505 --> 00:40:07.925
Yeah.

121
Eve Schooler 00:40:07.925 --> 00:40:08.675
Just put it there.

122
Eve Schooler 00:40:10.534 --> 00:40:13.144
But it was made, it was a comment that you made and underscore.

123
Suresh Krishnan 00:40:14.164 --> 00:40:14.884
Thanks, thank you.

124
Jari Arkko 00:40:18.424 --> 00:40:21.754
Perhaps we move forward. Did you also want to talk about.

125
Eve Schooler 00:40:23.915 --> 00:40:45.035
Yes, and I will say that, you know, I, I tried my best to put it all on 1 slide
as requested and I'll try not to linger on the things that we have stated a
lot. But, um, suffice to say, you know, there was lots of discussion on the
weather.

126
Eve Schooler 00:40:45.039 --> 00:41:05.374
Energy usage should be increasing remaining the same or being reduced and I
wanted to go back to sort of the urgency of some of the organizations like the
U. N. the inner governmental panel on climate change, um, world, uh, the
resources Institute.

127
Eve Schooler 00:41:06.274 --> 00:41:27.334
You know, when you look at the 6th assessment, that came out over the last
year, it makes it very clear. We're sort of a code red. You know, we, all of
the advice is, you know, this is the decade where we need to make a difference.
Um, and although there are these, um.

128
Eve Schooler 00:41:27.339 --> 00:41:48.484
Calls to say, you know, 50% reduction by 2030. um, invest is more, um, uh, even
quicker reductions by 10%, per year. Um, these are recommendations, but
everything points to that we need to front load this decade. So, we should be
assertive and aggressive and remember the urgency of.

129
Eve Schooler 00:41:48.490 --> 00:42:09.605
This task, so that's what I want to say there amidst all of the emails that are
flowing about that, um, for carbon wear networking, we, we want to take all of
these good metrics that we already have around performance of our of the
Internet of of networks.

130
Eve Schooler 00:42:09.640 --> 00:42:30.785
Specifically, and we want to augment them and in particular we gravitate to
energy because it feels like it's in our wheelhouse. It's, you know, it's kind
of next of kin for performance metrics that we typically focused on. At least
for the core network. We know that in the wireless realm, you know, it's very
much front and center, but let's augment them with.

131
Eve Schooler 00:42:30.789 --> 00:42:51.934
More information about carbon and more environmental metrics and 1 of the
phrases that my colleague and Co, author Don, as often said was, we cannot
energy efficiency our way to net 0, greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, which is
also 1 of the recommendations, which some have said, you know, that's very,
very.

132
Eve Schooler 00:42:51.964 --> 00:43:13.084
Late in the game, but even so we can't we need to have the tandem task that we
need to be looking at not just energy reductions, but carbon reductions and
other environmental impact reductions. So, this is, of course, just focusing on
the carbon part of it. But we the 1st task.

133
Eve Schooler 00:43:13.114 --> 00:43:34.234
Need to do is to deliver on telemetry extensions so that we can assess the pain
points that are happening. We need to make those the telemetry real time and we
need to quantify maybe as we go along. I mean, we want to understand what we're
using and also what we're how we're reducing and this has to happen.

134
Eve Schooler 00:43:34.295 --> 00:43:55.145
At the platform level, the component level, it's not sufficient to just be
doing this for, um, after all. Uh, we really want to help out applications. So
we need to on a thread by thread basis. Understand, um, what is our, what is
the impact of applications and that really was the thrust of this workshop, or
at least the title for this workshop.

135
Eve Schooler 00:43:55.415 --> 00:44:16.265
Is the Internet applications and services so we need to get to that level of
specificity and we also need to consider and track secondary effects, like
cooling and so forth in monitoring electricity consumed and carbon intensity,
which I both I've put them both underneath the umbrella of carbon intelligence.

136
Eve Schooler 00:44:16.654 --> 00:44:37.684
Um, we need to we want to monitor and track them at the end points, the sources
and destinations, but also we want to leverage in network telemetry to
understand the hub. I hop assessment as well. And we know that there that all
of our constituents who happened to be.

137
Eve Schooler 00:44:37.714 --> 00:44:58.834
Like, the developers, the users, the stakeholders, the operators, everyone
wants tools that are going to help with accurate measurements. And we know
that, for example, not only are we, you know, there's some shortcomings in
retrieving real time information, but also even the, we need to find.

138
Eve Schooler 00:44:58.864 --> 00:45:19.984
Green carbon intensity information, a consistency around the frequency, the
regions within, which we can gather carbon intensity information, even the
completeness around the globe for that kind of information and we want tools
that not only help us measure, but also help us model.

139
Eve Schooler 00:45:20.015 --> 00:45:41.135
We're not always going to be able to get those measurements so we're going to
have to estimate them and even in cases predict them and so it's somewhat of a
sorrowful state that we find some of our tools like trace route, which used to
help us to understand how by how accounting of other kinds of metrics.

140
Eve Schooler 00:45:41.165 --> 00:46:02.285
It'd be great to have a tool that allowed us out of band to look at the network
and have some observe ability of it with regards to carbon, both energy and
carbon. And, uh, in the earlier talk on, um, in the 1st session, we did outline
more about, you know, the end goal is.

141
Eve Schooler 00:46:02.289 --> 00:46:23.404
Many different facets, kind of a toolkit of carbon awareness throughout the
stack and 1 of the cultural, uh, I guess alignment the cultural alignment that
we have with the, is that we have many working groups in, which we could
probably be doing some of this work both at the routing.

142
Eve Schooler 00:46:23.464 --> 00:46:44.584
Transport levels for traffic engineering and so forth. But again, I want to go
back to the fact that we need to sort of accelerate our efforts, accelerate
deployment and to do that. We really need to have some rigorous testing and
certification potentially. So that we can attest to the measurements that we
get, or even the test to the approximations that we can account for.

143
Eve Schooler 00:46:44.824 --> 00:47:05.734
And, and understand how how we audited the network, um, and, uh, we need to be
able to scale this up. I worry that culturally we don't have the apparatus in
place. Certainly, not in the for things like, um, sort of certification or
validation to the degree of record that we might need.

144
Eve Schooler 00:47:05.765 --> 00:47:26.885
And so that's an open for us to consider who might be our partners, which is
exactly what I say in this last point, which is, it's become very clear in all
of the discussions that we need to be collaborating across, sort of all corners
of the Internet. And those who have.

145
Eve Schooler 00:47:26.890 --> 00:47:48.035
Stake in it and especially those who are working hard in other comms standards
organizations. Uh, we've heard about the, um, we, uh, we have heard about, um,
you know, like there there are other organizations in the mobile space. I
suspect we'll hear about some of them. There was a great report that.

146
Eve Schooler 00:47:48.064 --> 00:48:09.094
Came out this week from the about commitments in the mobile space so we need to
be partnering to make sure that we have. And I think it was vanilla who
suggested we needed a gap analysis. Other thing we need best practices and even
shared terminology. So, we're speaking the same language.

147
Eve Schooler 00:48:09.454 --> 00:48:30.154
Um, I feel, I'd be remiss if I didn't underscore that we really need to
understand the socio technical implications, because we want to effect change,
but we want to affect the right kind of change, which, in turn are going to
affect the policies that are created by governments, and then also we want the
technology we create to be adopted and so we need to understand.

148
Eve Schooler 00:48:30.454 --> 00:48:34.084
What motivates people to care and to adopt.

149
Jari Arkko 00:48:34.114 --> 00:48:36.514
Technologies we may need to move on.

150
Eve Schooler 00:48:36.844 --> 00:48:51.484
And so my last point then is just and and this is really important. I feel like
there's a follow up conversation. We had here, maybe another workshop around
the coming together of the Internet and the electric grid. We, we.

151
Eve Schooler 00:48:51.515 --> 00:49:12.635
We have to understand it. Um, there was an interesting paper I would recommend
reading that Bruce submitted about how could we influence the re, architecture
of this electric grid? Um, drawing upon what we know from the Internet, um,
understanding, pricing, understanding, business models um, because.

152
Eve Schooler 00:49:12.665 --> 00:49:33.785
For all the electric grid is going to have to supply 4 times as much
electricity as it's producing now, in order to make, even the transition, just
to the electrification of transportation. And, as we know that's going to imply
massive disruption to the infrastructure. And there's this opportunity to.

153
Eve Schooler 00:49:33.814 --> 00:49:39.424
Effect change there and to be involved there. So there you have. Thank you.

154
Jari Arkko 00:49:39.574 --> 00:49:40.204
Thank you.

155
Eve Schooler 00:49:40.264 --> 00:49:41.194
For the extra minute.

156
Jari Arkko 00:49:41.224 --> 00:49:51.604
I think it's sort of, um, uh, out of time for questions, maybe, um, that we
should move on to the next talk, uh, Carlos, which 1 of you is doing that.

157
Suresh Krishnan 00:49:53.554 --> 00:49:54.484
I can go.

158
Jari Arkko 00:49:55.354 --> 00:49:55.684
Thank you.

159
Suresh Krishnan 00:49:57.274 --> 00:50:05.164
I just had 1 slide and Eve like, you did an awesome job, like, you know, this
consumed a lot of like, you know, what I was gonna say is, but I'm happy
anyway. So go ahead.

160
Eve Schooler 00:50:05.164 --> 00:50:05.524
All right.

161
Eve Schooler 00:50:10.204 --> 00:50:12.904
You inspired me to include it. Here. You have it.

162
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 00:50:14.464 --> 00:50:17.674
So, will we have discussions afterwards or.

163
Jari Arkko 00:50:20.974 --> 00:50:23.104
We will have time for discussion afterwards.

164
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 00:50:23.164 --> 00:50:25.204
Okay, yeah, because I had a question.

165
Suresh Krishnan 00:50:26.344 --> 00:50:28.414
Thank you. Can you hear me.

166
Jari Arkko 00:50:29.434 --> 00:50:30.694
Yes, I see it.

167
Suresh Krishnan 00:50:31.174 --> 00:50:40.024
Yeah, thanks. Uh, so just like Gary and Colin asked to summarize, like, pretty
much the, the, the improvement, the employee, um, the implementation technology.

168
Suresh Krishnan 00:50:40.084 --> 00:51:01.204
Protocols so, I think like, a lot of this is gonna be overlapping with what you
said, but I just do want to put up the salient things that came up not only on
day 3 but also before, uh, that's related to, like, you know, what we can do
pretty quickly on the implementation and the technology side. So, 1 thing that
kind of came up a lot of talks was like, you know, they, we need to measure,
like, what we have to do like, you know, how to.

169
Suresh Krishnan 00:51:01.209 --> 00:51:22.354
Whole thing, so I think the metrics are networking was like, pretty high up,
like, you know, quite a few, like, in Alex's talk or talk, like, you know, even
the, uh, like, you know, earlier like, you know, I think you've stopped. Like,
now, a lot of it's actually focused on how to measure things and 1 of the key
things was, like, how do we standardize the terminology and what is getting
measured? So, like, we don't we all talk about the same thing when we are
comparing a different product.

170
Suresh Krishnan 00:51:22.504 --> 00:51:43.294
Different networks, and so on to how to talk the same language and, and I think
this is another key thing. Like, it came again in multiple talks. Like, how do
we improve non networking things? So, we are networking people, we can improve
that, but, uh, there's like, 2 aspects. Like, how do we kind of take care of,
like our value chain, like know where things are coming from. So, like, you
know, I think Alex was talking a little bit about, um.

171
Suresh Krishnan 00:51:43.564 --> 00:52:04.654
How do we actually, like, look at the power and, like, you know, uh, on on the
chat side, uh, is all we're talking about it as well like, you know, how do we
actually, um, take the whole product life cycle into consideration right? Like,
you know, how do we take the packaging the modularity and we also talked about,
like, you know, how things can be, like, more reusable right? Like, how can we
things a bit more.

172
Suresh Krishnan 00:52:04.660 --> 00:52:25.805
Flexible at the cost of, like, having a longer life product and I think it's
like, uh, I think also dovetails into what said a little bit, um, you know, how
do we, like, stick with, like, you know, um, something that's good enough like,
go forward. Right and and this all dovetails into having slide a little bit
more flexibility built in if it doesn't cost too much. Right and and kind of
like.

173
Suresh Krishnan 00:52:25.834 --> 00:52:46.924
Things for longer, and the other angle was really the energy of our routing
stuff. So there's like, uh, like simple things, like, you know, picking more
energy, efficient routes. If we have the information, uh, and also time variant
routing that, like, you know, um, uh, Russell, number of, like, talk was about,
um, so there's like, kind of compromises in there again as well. Um, and I
think that's like.

174
Suresh Krishnan 00:52:46.959 --> 00:53:08.104
Team I kind of want to summarize it at the end, but the thing was, like, okay,
like, you know, if you start doing stuff like, you know, um, you know, turning
off links or turning off routers and so on, like, you know, the convergence,
like, kind of takes a hit, right? Like, so it's not gonna be like a 0 cost to,
uh, do this. And I think like, earlier talks, I think it was, uh, Daniel was
talking about duty cycling things, right? Like, so it kind of.

175
Suresh Krishnan 00:53:08.134 --> 00:53:29.254
Into the same thing, so the can either be due to constraints in the, um, the
technology itself, or could be something that you, uh, actually want to do,
which is duty cycling. And I think, uh, another concept that came up was, like,
is it possible to time shift demand so, this came up in, like, multiple things
like, you know, how do we, um, like, kind of like, you know, not hit the peaks,
right? Because the.

176
Suresh Krishnan 00:53:29.344 --> 00:53:50.194
The function of like, you know, the the networks spending energy is not like
pretty, it's not linear. So there's like a whole bunch of, like,
discontinuities. And how do we actually keep stuff uh, uh, by time shifting
demand? So, we don't have to grow as quickly or wait till the I think like, it
was, who talked about a little bit. I'm like, wait for the, uh, improvements to
catch up. Right? Like before we do the upgrades to them.

177
Suresh Krishnan 00:53:51.995 --> 00:54:11.105
And, uh, on the multi side again, like, there's like, kind of I, I heard, like,
2 different things that are, like, kind of opposite to each other. Um, so,
like, you know, how can we use multicast to improve things? Right? Like, you
know, kind of like CD and distributions and stuff and so on. But also, like,
stuff on the side, like, you know, kind of, um, Pascal talking about, like, you
know, how, like, you know.

178
Suresh Krishnan 00:54:11.644 --> 00:54:17.434
Effects like a lot of the constrained networks. So I think it's kind of again,
um, boils down to this kind of, uh, trade off thing.

179
Suresh Krishnan 00:54:18.904 --> 00:54:39.724
And, uh, so following on into data formats, like, and this is like, a really
good presentation as well, like, you know, the kind of comparison. And there's
like, 2 things I kind of came off from it, like 1 of them is the efficiency
trade off, like, have to be made. Sometimes like, uh, if you really compressed
things, um, is it gonna make it less readable or.

180
Suresh Krishnan 00:54:39.784 --> 00:55:00.904
It doesn't matter, right? I think that's something we need to think about. And
also, uh, how much is the magnitude of impact. So we talk about, like, 30%
like, you know, what is that 30% off? So, if you, if it's just going to be a
manifest for some video, that's already compressed like, you know, how much
does it safe um, and going up to like, high level thoughts? Um, I think this is
like an interesting thing that came up.

181
Suresh Krishnan 00:55:00.935 --> 00:55:22.055
In chat, and I think Rob talked about it a little bit. Um, is there a way for
us to kind of share, um, the energy impact to the users? So I think this is
like a very difficult problem, but it's a very interesting problem for us to
look at. So it's kind of like a longer term thing. Uh, how do we actually, uh,
show the users like, what they are like, really resulting in energy impact
right? And that changes.

182
Suresh Krishnan 00:55:22.084 --> 00:55:43.204
Behavior that's something to kind of get to. And the follow up to that is, um,
is good enough. Good enough. So, is there, like, you know, if if people are
happier with, like, in a lower definition video, or, like, you know, low
latency, or, like, lower availability, like, should be able to push towards
that rather than trying to always maximize on all these, uh.

183
Suresh Krishnan 00:55:43.234 --> 00:56:04.354
It's another thing high level we need to think of another interesting thought
that came up, like, mostly in the chat and discussions. Uh, I was like, if we
design for constraint, is it gonna be, uh, equally good for non constraints?
So, like, you know, kind of think of the most constrained environment, like
most energy, uh, restrictive and design for that and, and try to re.

184
Suresh Krishnan 00:56:04.384 --> 00:56:25.474
Stand for non concern, because it should work. Right it's like a like a
hypothesis we need to kind of test it. That's true. Or not. Right. And and the
last thing I want to kind of leave it, and this is how I talked to earlier
about this um, so no such thing as free launch. So, it's, um, I, I know we can
always optimize on the energy front, but it does it actually catch, um, the.

185
Suresh Krishnan 00:56:25.534 --> 00:56:36.784
Um, like, you know, the other side of it, like, is there other things that are
important for the users? So kind of document the trade offs a little bit, and
go from there so, yeah, yeah, I saw you type something in the chat, but I
cannot see.

186
Jari Arkko 00:56:38.554 --> 00:56:42.604
Yeah, I'm avoiding asking a question because of lack of time, but I.

187
Suresh Krishnan 00:56:42.994 --> 00:56:43.354
Sure.

188
Jari Arkko 00:56:43.804 --> 00:56:45.664
Others can comment on the chat also.

189
Suresh Krishnan 00:56:46.414 --> 00:56:46.654
Yeah.

190
Suresh Krishnan 00:56:46.715 --> 00:56:54.905
So, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm done with so I kind of like rush through it. So, like,
no, um, if you have time, I can take questions. Um.

191
Jari Arkko 00:56:56.075 --> 00:57:04.895
Yeah, I, I'm almost of the opinion that we go to the end of the presentation,
then we discuss. So, um, I think your next.

192
Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:13.114 --> 00:57:16.594
Uh, can you hear me? Okay okay.

193
Jari Arkko 00:57:17.254 --> 00:57:17.824
Yes.

194
Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:18.574 --> 00:57:19.924
I'll share my PowerPoint.

195
Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:27.214 --> 00:57:27.904
Okay.

196
Jari Arkko 00:57:28.984 --> 00:57:29.674
We see.

197
Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:30.124 --> 00:57:31.234
Okay, perfect.

198
Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:34.985 --> 00:57:54.335
Okay, uh, I'll start with the where we are, uh, we are currently shifting from
the monolithic architecture of, uh, 4 g, going towards the service based 1, uh,
of in which natural elements are, uh, natural functions, uh, which are usually
a virtual machine.

199
Beatrice Siccardi 00:57:54.484 --> 00:58:15.394
Containers regarding the radio access network, uh, we can say that 5 g
supports, uh, open run, uh, which supports, uh, the splitting of, um, the base
stations. Moreover, it's worth highlighting that most of the energy
consumptions, uh, about.

200
Beatrice Siccardi 00:58:15.515 --> 00:58:36.635
3rd, uh, is, uh, related to the, uh, radio access network. Uh, finally, we can
say that 5 g enables the edge computing technology, uh, this, uh, modifies is
going to modify, uh, the, uh, data center topology, uh, from a huge centralized.

201
Beatrice Siccardi 00:58:36.994 --> 00:58:57.784
Data centers towards a smaller and smaller edge data centers, uh, from a
research point of view, uh, we are already at, uh, and we are focusing,
especially on it's crucial point, which is going to be energy efficiency even
though we can say that the.

202
Beatrice Siccardi 00:58:57.814 --> 00:59:18.874
Energy efficiency issues issue has already been tackled a bit in a, for
example, uh, by increasing the sleep mode of, uh, device of 5 g, devices, uh,
the next steps that we have to take a, I think, start with the observer ability
because, as we said.

203
Beatrice Siccardi 00:59:18.965 --> 00:59:40.055
Earlier we can't control what we don't measure. So, especially here, I think
standardization bodies such as can make a difference we need 1st of all to
define which metrics to consider. And then also we have to relate these metrics
to individual vertical applications. This is.

204
Beatrice Siccardi 00:59:40.089 --> 01:00:00.964
Is a non trivial task since we have in at least 1 visualization layer. Once we
have the metrics, we can make the network, uh, energy or Carbone aware, and we
can exploit this awareness in order to, um, by incentivizing economically the
stakeholders who.

205
Beatrice Siccardi 01:00:01.295 --> 01:00:17.465
Consume less, for example, another use of the metrics that we have to do is
the, uh, optimization and we see the trend of energy efficiency optimization
and optimization in general is following artificial intelligence. Now.

206
Beatrice Siccardi 01:00:19.594 --> 01:00:40.714
In the position papers that were presented in this workshop, I found a 4
proposed, uh, solutions regarding the energy efficiency of mobile networks. Uh,
the 1st, 1 was, uh, proposed by, uh, a paper from anonymous authors, uh, who
propose a method to collect and calculate.

207
Beatrice Siccardi 01:00:40.719 --> 01:01:01.864
The end to end energy efficiency of edge services, uh, based on, uh, the
traffic pass from end users to edge service replicas. Uh, the other, the other
3 are present in our position paper. And if you want for details, you should,
uh, you can.

208
Beatrice Siccardi 01:01:01.895 --> 01:01:23.015
Find them there regarding of durability, we propose the energy where back
pressure who's aim is to collect, uh, energy KPI, that different levels, uh,
such as that vertical application level at the slice level. And also at overall
network level and to.

209
Beatrice Siccardi 01:01:23.284 --> 01:01:44.104
Make all the stakeholders are aware of such KPIs regarding the optimization
technique techniques. We propose a 2 concepts, the agility 1, which consists of
the space shift of network functions and, or a vertical application components.

210
Beatrice Siccardi 01:01:44.494 --> 01:02:05.314
Based on, for example, user movements, or, uh, for example, based on
availability of renewable energy. So, with the agility, we would be able to,
uh, provide services only when, and where they are needed uh, finally the last,
uh, the last method we propose.

211
Beatrice Siccardi 01:02:05.344 --> 01:02:26.464
Is green plasticity, which consists in the, uh, dynamic and adaptive, uh,
hardware, assisted a offloading of natural functions and, or vertical
application components, uh, in case of a very heavy workload with a very high,
uh, requirements.

212
Beatrice Siccardi 01:02:26.469 --> 01:02:33.814
In terms of latency, for example, thank you. If you have any questions, please
ask them.

213
Jari Arkko 01:02:36.005 --> 01:02:43.025
Yeah, um, there will be discussed at the moment. Um, and you can ask on the on
the chat, um, next up John.

214
John Preuß Mattsson 01:02:51.244 --> 01:02:53.584
Yeah, do you see my screen or do you hear me.

215
Jari Arkko 01:02:54.514 --> 01:02:55.204
Yes.

216
John Preuß Mattsson 01:02:56.194 --> 01:03:07.354
Good so this is a presentation trying to summarize what we should not do trying
to summarize what has been mentioned in the paper and in.

217
John Preuß Mattsson 01:03:08.134 --> 01:03:17.164
Uh, discussions and a lot of things have been about energy in efficiency as.

218
John Preuß Mattsson 01:03:17.254 --> 01:03:36.724
Several people talking about, we should not use bad sources of energy with some
different definition, or what is green and then we have, we should not do
luxury consumers more basically, unnecessary things that are not needed.

219
John Preuß Mattsson 01:03:39.125 --> 01:03:59.525
Use systems, they use a lot of resources either when you create them, like
water, land minerals, or create a lot of E, waste should not do digital
consumerism. This might be very bad condition during, for example, mining or.

220
John Preuß Mattsson 01:04:00.034 --> 01:04:20.674
Much pollution during the production where it might be based that or 74, even
when it's formally stand for recycling should not do things that have a
negative impact on society should not use numbers that don't add up a little
bit.

221
John Preuß Mattsson 01:04:20.705 --> 01:04:41.825
And aspects should not send too many acts, or in general not send too many
messages, and we should not fly which use systems instead um, some slides on
specific topics. Energy efficiency has been discussed a lot.

222
John Preuß Mattsson 01:04:42.514 --> 01:05:02.824
A clear low hanging fruit for what not to do here is the assets with proof of
work. They use energy, like a small country. It could also be seen as having a
negative impact and being unusable. Another example, was this binary washes.

223
John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:03.724 --> 01:05:09.994
Text with a 3rd thing, new protocols can generally decrease.

224
Jari Arkko 01:05:20.975 --> 01:05:22.865
So, not at least I lost your voice.

225
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:05:27.994 --> 01:05:28.864
Yeah, me too.

226
John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:32.915 --> 01:05:33.845
More secure.

227
Jari Arkko 01:05:34.535 --> 01:05:36.785
Shawn, we lost the last minute of your.

228
John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:38.645 --> 01:05:39.365
Huh? You didn't.

229
John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:41.285 --> 01:05:44.105
Um, but I hear you. Do you hear me now? Yep.

230
Jari Arkko 01:05:44.435 --> 01:05:45.035
Yes.

231
John Preuß Mattsson 01:05:45.845 --> 01:06:02.195
Okay, I, I guess another discussion is to not use bad energy sources. Uh,
people has, what should we do what is bad and what is what we should do.

232
John Preuß Mattsson 01:06:02.224 --> 01:06:23.074
Instead has been different green and clean and might not be very defined.
Renewable might be a little bit of target and maybe not enough, uh, might be
better to be more concrete. Like, don't use systems that energy sources with.

233
John Preuß Mattsson 01:06:23.644 --> 01:06:44.434
Large greenhouse gas emissions, uh, other things that are bad with with energy
sources is maybe the 2nd, largest bad thing is maybe air pollution then you
have, of course up the bad things that can be bad with energy sources. Also,
like, use of.

234
John Preuß Mattsson 01:06:44.499 --> 01:06:49.774
Sources or other forms of pollution and and waste, um.

235
John Preuß Mattsson 01:06:50.974 --> 01:07:11.284
Uh, there's been discussion that we should have carbon and we're networking.
Uh, maybe that can handle other aspects in the future also, is that is
developed. Uh, this is a bit hard for the to control the easier to control the
1st aspects, especially.

236
John Preuß Mattsson 01:07:11.314 --> 01:07:27.664
About protocols how inefficient they are, but in general, we should consider
life cycle of the systems as a whole. Um, then my last slide is about E, waste
over consumption, digital colonialism.

237
John Preuß Mattsson 01:07:28.294 --> 01:07:49.354
Re, um, uh, as overconsumption in production production often is in 3rd world
countries, while the products are used in in the industrial rich countries. And
the same is true with based.

238
John Preuß Mattsson 01:07:49.714 --> 01:08:10.504
E, waste even understand for recycling in the Western bird. They end up in a
non responsible way in developing countries. Um, so we should avoid things that
produce a lot of E, waste. At least that cannot be recycled in a.

239
John Preuß Mattsson 01:08:10.984 --> 01:08:11.524
Wait.

240
Jari Arkko 01:08:16.173 --> 01:08:22.414
Thanks a lot and, uh, we're gonna move right on to, uh, talking here the last 1.

241
Jukka Manner 01:08:27.363 --> 01:08:30.994
Save the videos thoughts or math looks like it's not starting.

242
Jari Arkko 01:08:33.094 --> 01:08:34.024
Yeah, we hear you though.

243
Jukka Manner 01:08:35.074 --> 01:08:36.814
Oh, that's better. Okay.

244
Jari Arkko 01:08:36.814 --> 01:08:37.804
You can see you.

245
Jukka Manner 01:08:38.554 --> 01:08:39.064
Okay.

246
Jukka Manner 01:08:40.685 --> 01:08:45.005
So, if you had a, you know, short title.

247
Jukka Manner 01:08:47.314 --> 01:08:54.244
I took the liberty to upgrade that a bit, but, um, let's see how this works.

248
Jukka Manner 01:08:55.745 --> 01:09:16.775
So, um, yeah, um, this I added the kind of the, an, towards sustainability that
was my, my contribution to the workshop earlier and, uh, in I have actually,
beyond this slide. I have just questions, I don't have a single answer and a
single proposal for you for everybody, but rather have been.

249
Jukka Manner 01:09:16.804 --> 01:09:37.713
Following the discussion on the list, and in these meetings and made some notes
on on that on, on the sustainability annual. So not selling anything. But, um,
starting starting from way, way further in trying to understand what
sustainability.

250
Jukka Manner 01:09:37.930 --> 01:09:59.075
Sustainable and stuff like that is then if you even go to the U N, sustainable
development goals, then that's a huge area. It has elements that, you know,
there was in the previous presentation and investment has been talking about
similar topics. We're not seeing creatures, you know, pick fixing some smaller
technological.

251
Jukka Manner 01:09:59.104 --> 01:10:12.004
Color issue, but looking, at the big perspective, I'm not saying that we, that
we should be discussing all these 17 goals, but just to highlight the
sustainability means a lot of different things.

252
Jukka Manner 01:10:13.265 --> 01:10:34.325
If we go a bit more into the to the topic, then I have 2 slides of all the
questions because I have been working on this, let's say, energy efficiency and
sustainability topic in for over 10 years. And it's always a kind of
challenging. What is scoped and what is actually what people see.

253
Jukka Manner 01:10:34.354 --> 01:10:55.474
Scope and what they are looking at, for example, energy has been mentioned many
times. Are we talking about, are we measuring electrical energy or measuring,
you know, use of all possible energy sources on this planet? Are we talking
about renewable energy, or just energy usage as a whole for example, if every.

254
Jukka Manner 01:10:55.534 --> 01:11:16.564
Thing is renewable in the future is the problem solved in the previous slide in
which you could see that, you know, there's no such thing as, you know, free
energy. There are less than less than more N re, uh, kind of emissions from an
energy source. But all energy sources need to be built.

255
Jukka Manner 01:11:16.630 --> 01:11:37.775
Deployed and so forth. Are we talking about embodied energy or just the
operational side? I'm seeing many discussions, you know, in this last week on
the topic or are we talking about carbon emissions or energy? Carbon emissions?
Are we talking about scopes 123? And there was scope.

256
Jukka Manner 01:11:37.894 --> 01:11:44.014
I mentioned today even so, this seems to be totally, depending on who was
talking.

257
Jukka Manner 01:11:46.355 --> 01:12:07.385
And or are we talking about coming back to the, you know, embodied energy? And
are we talking about? And actually, the previous presentation had this, you
know, um, waste and so forth. Are we talking about the whole life cycle of, of
equipment of systems of networks, or just, you know, something related to.

258
Jukka Manner 01:12:07.390 --> 01:12:12.875
Operational side seems to be that people are talking about different things.

259
Jukka Manner 01:12:15.004 --> 01:12:35.554
Talking about, you know, for example, hardware and again, is it just
operational? Is it the whole life cycle? There's been these discussions on the,
on the mailing list on this consumption, or or or hardware vendors,
implementing energy, proportional systems or their load based is their role
based consumption or.

260
Jukka Manner 01:12:35.614 --> 01:12:49.564
Everything is flat, so it doesn't really matter whether you are sending 1 beat
or 10. gigabits. It's the same. So, you know, who cares again, seems to be
different different viewpoints whether it's in scope or not of.

261
Jukka Manner 01:12:49.689 --> 01:13:10.834
Be to make proposals suggestions on hardware implementation that's, you know,
again, as I said, to me, it's an open question and my last slide again continue
the same chain of thought throwing out. Or are we talking about on 1 hand
hardware on 1 hand software? Do we.

262
Jukka Manner 01:13:10.864 --> 01:13:31.594
Testing, for example, some implementation guidelines, some, you know, ways to
do more clever implementations, more energy, efficient or carbon saving,
depending on, depending on your metric and KPI. So, would that be in scope? I
don't have the answer just raising out questions.

263
Jukka Manner 01:13:32.015 --> 01:13:53.135
I see our need to be discussed or are we simply talking about architectures and
their impact how different things and there was, for example, these different
ways of routing routing have been mentioned many times. So, is that something
that would be a scope or not in scope or are we may be focusing on protocol
level?

264
Jukka Manner 01:13:53.165 --> 01:14:14.195
Things again, you know, you could, you could you could work with 1 or both or
any combination then coming back to the scope for and in general. Are we simply
talking about footprint or often people, especially in the in the let's say,
uh, I see the sector in the business side often.

265
Jukka Manner 01:14:14.289 --> 01:14:29.944
Advocate to hand print side so the scope for us was mentioned. So how much good
it does so that neglects the bad. But what is what would be the WH, what would
be in scope for the I have to consider potentially in the future.

266
Jukka Manner 01:14:31.234 --> 01:14:52.354
Again, in my opinion open question, then are we talking about simply short term
things, you know, just use renewable energy on problem solved? Or are we
talking about long term questions for example, just using less absolute amounts
of energy because all the energy sources need to be.

267
Jukka Manner 01:14:53.434 --> 01:15:13.504
So it's not necessarily about just use renewables and, you know, problems
solved or or or or things like that. So, in that sense, uh, and our energy
sources in general, even in the scope to consider, you know, what energy
sources companies are using I mean, there are countries who have, you know,
very late.

268
Jukka Manner 01:15:14.825 --> 01:15:34.025
Renewable sources, and then there's countries like nowhere, which, uh, as far
as I understand, was 99% renewables. So there's no way need to do anything
because they are running on renewables. So again, and at the end, it seems to
be that, you know, the final question is there probably in the 1st place.

269
Jukka Manner 01:15:34.775 --> 01:15:37.145
By the or.

270
Jukka Manner 01:15:38.194 --> 01:15:55.714
Because, on 1 hand, if you look at these different, you know, uh, trends and
trends and and kind of views to the future, some say we are going going in the
wrong direction. And, of course, some people say that we are going the right
direction. And and hardware solves the problem and everything is fine.

271
Jukka Manner 01:15:58.234 --> 01:16:12.754
Event that doesn't to me, it doesn't seem to be clear that, uh, that is there
even a problem to consider, but I'll stop here. That's my kind of 33 slides of
questions questions questions.

272
Jari Arkko 01:16:15.245 --> 01:16:35.105
Thank you and maybe that's sort of a fitting final presentation, because sort
of points the fact that we have lots of open questions, right? Yeah. Maybe they
actually have some answers to your, your questions. I think we have a pretty
wide scope. We can't only focus on a narrow thing. Some of some things are, of
course, outside the scope of.

273
Jari Arkko 01:16:35.404 --> 01:16:41.224
You have to make improvements in, but we still probably need to understand, but
those things are happening.

274
Jari Arkko 01:16:42.514 --> 01:16:57.904
But I'll open it for general discussion now and, um, yeah, like, um, uh,
conclusions and, uh, proposals for next steps and, and such. I, I will take at
the end a little bit of time for.

275
Jari Arkko 01:16:59.525 --> 01:17:17.915
My view where we are, um, I took some notes during the session, um, but, um, go
ahead. Um, either shoot questions to the presenters, or make comments about
stuff that you think we should focus on or do, or actions that are doable.

276
heb 01:17:20.795 --> 01:17:41.555
I haven't heard anything from service providers, maybe 1 or 2 or Verizon, but I
haven't heard the, I'm not sure from network operators. Most of the
presentations from academia or people in the industry, but I haven't heard
anything.

277
heb 01:17:43.774 --> 01:17:46.984
To avoid those carriers.

278
Jari Arkko 01:17:49.114 --> 01:18:05.794
Yeah, that that's actually a common problem in in many contexts, the ideas, um,
this is not we're not alone in that respect, but if anybody from the operators
actually wants to speak up and and is present and please, please speak up, we
do, did have some, some data from them.

279
Jari Arkko 01:18:07.714 --> 01:18:18.694
But it's always the, um, yeah, I, I work for a vendor, um, we try to innovate
on on stuff. Um, but somewhat, sometimes we're too eager, much better to hear
from the people who actually run things.

280
Toerless Eckert 01:18:25.114 --> 01:18:28.174
Is the a plus Q mechanism still use or? Sorry?

281
Jari Arkko 01:18:29.524 --> 01:18:34.324
Uh, well, uh, we didn't say anything about that, but yeah, yes, go ahead.

282
Toerless Eckert 01:18:35.494 --> 01:18:42.184
No, I, I think the, the main question to the organizers is, if you already have
any ideas or how we should.

283
Toerless Eckert 01:18:42.189 --> 01:19:03.334
Continue the discussion, um, outside of of your answer I certainly, you know,
seen, um, um, welcoming, um, you know, um, people in the ops area working group
just, um, uh, when when there are things that can be put into the form of a
submissions, which may or may not be appropriate to.

284
Toerless Eckert 01:19:03.364 --> 01:19:11.524
Can you the discussion best but, uh, yeah, so I think, you know, sort of really
talking about subjects right now. I was wondering about that primarily.

285
Jari Arkko 01:19:15.035 --> 01:19:35.195
Uh, yes, uh, that's sort of a preview of what, um, we had in mind is that, um,
they will there's some practical, uh, um, you know, next steps for for the
workshop. We'll write the report as we normally do. We'll talk about this in
the open.

286
Jari Arkko 01:19:36.244 --> 01:19:56.914
Some of the things that being talked about will progress independently.
Probably there's some metrics work working group will we'll go ahead and, and
many other things will happen. Uh, either the idea for elsewhere as a
implementation improvements. Um, I think we should also continue this a bit
more widely. Um, maybe there's some other things.

287
Jari Arkko 01:19:56.944 --> 01:20:13.834
We should be doing, um, maybe get the ops area involved. Um, I think we should
continue the good discussion on the mailing list. Um, in the, in this, um,
gathering, and perhaps open it up for everybody wants to.

288
Toerless Eckert 01:20:15.274 --> 01:20:18.064
Yeah, that can be transformed into an open mailing list.

289
Toerless Eckert 01:20:18.154 --> 01:20:38.914
With, um, you know, with an archive or so that would certainly be the least
overhead and least controversial approach. Um, the, the, the, the, the form
that I did, like, um, in the, of course, are, I think I had already said that,
uh, um, and before the special interest working groups, which are not that much
tied to, um.

290
Toerless Eckert 01:20:39.664 --> 01:20:53.134
The deliverables that we usually expect from working groups or research groups.
Um, but that are more to to bring communities together. Um, so, um, maybe that
would also be something for you to look into if that would be appropriate.

291
Jari Arkko 01:20:55.714 --> 01:20:56.224
Thank you.

292
Jari Arkko 01:20:59.495 --> 01:21:03.125
And I'm trying to track the queue. Where are we, um.

293
Jari Arkko 01:21:05.165 --> 01:21:05.765
Chris.

294
Chris Adams 01:21:07.775 --> 01:21:25.745
Effects Thank you. Um, there was 1 thing a reflection I wanted to share. That
is probably unique or interesting. Specifically. The network context is that
I'm among with all the papers I saw, I think, beyond a reference from Bruce
norman's paper, talking about a power price index, as a way to kind of
communicate things.

295
Chris Adams 01:21:25.774 --> 01:21:37.054
Like, the cost and carbon intensity of electricity. I'm, I'm weather I didn't
actually see any research about how things like peering or paying for transit
might work.

296
Chris Adams 01:21:41.165 --> 01:22:00.995
Price a different kind of carbon and Tennessee in different parts of the world
and I feel like because the Internet has a kind of different, unique, different
economic model with ideas, like pairing and different stewardship of resources.
I figured that might be quite a fertile ground for a search that other sectors
and other places might not be so well placed to do where there's.

297
Chris Adams 01:22:01.384 --> 01:22:14.404
Probably a chance for the to share some really groundbreaking stuff that could
be adopted and, and lots of places. That was 1 thing that I, I'm sharing that
part as a provocation. And I'd be really up for exploring not in the meeting
list. If there's anyone else who's looked at any of that at all.

298
Jari Arkko 01:22:16.234 --> 01:22:17.644
Sounds like an exciting topic.

299
Jari Arkko 01:22:20.134 --> 01:22:22.744
Um, and let me see.

300
Jari Arkko 01:22:25.204 --> 01:22:25.714
Rob.

301
Rob Wilton 01:22:27.514 --> 01:22:27.784
Yes.

302
Rob Wilton 01:22:28.774 --> 01:22:48.934
I'll put my sort of mainly in the chat. Actually. My question is also back to
is whether we should be trying to set up a work in the short term. So I think
there's been lots of very interesting discussion here. Some of it, I think is
things are quite actionable in the short term that we can do. I think documents
proposing of suggestions is quite easy to act on quite quick.

303
Rob Wilton 01:22:49.594 --> 01:22:58.324
Uh, generating metrics is quite easy to act on quite quickly and there's other
things I think we've discussed where we've seen wider issues that might not be
something you can solve in the tool.

304
Rob Wilton 01:22:58.894 --> 01:23:19.864
Do wonder whether creating a working group in the in the short term would be a
good idea attacked as a focal point for these discussions. I do have a question
whether that ends up being a talking shop or and or what sort of actionable
work it can do. But similar is, I think, is especially interest groups and ops
and things a bit like.

305
Rob Wilton 01:23:20.524 --> 01:23:28.894
Having a focal point, this might be a way of coordinating this work. Well,
quickly within the I. T, I don't know. So that's 1 thought that I have a
suggestion.

306
Jari Arkko 01:23:30.664 --> 01:23:41.014
Yeah, it's good. Good question. I don't know what the answer is really, but,
um, uh, we also have a fairly broad range of topics and some are at.

307
Jari Arkko 01:23:41.109 --> 01:23:53.764
Side of things some are very practical things and they also cross different
areas and some are routing from our and other stuff. Um, so it may not be super
easy either to have 1 place. But, um.

308
Rob Wilton 01:23:56.584 --> 01:24:15.514
You had to do the work there, so sort of tried to coordinate with other working
groups. So, in some cases, that that aspect of doing that, the routing, the
routing, if it's fine and the aspect of longer term versus short term, I think
we'd have to have a goal of only be looking at work within the, the short,
shorter term goals and the longer term stuff you'd say.

309
Rob Wilton 01:24:16.804 --> 01:24:17.404
Be my fault.

310
Jari Arkko 01:24:20.074 --> 01:24:22.474
Thank you, uh, next up on the curious.

311
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:24:24.094 --> 01:24:37.414
Yes, thank you. So I had a comment, a reflection, which is general and
especially I came to think of it when listening to Eva and so, um, I think Eva
mentioned something.

312
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:24:37.535 --> 01:24:58.655
Around the gap analysis, you refer back to me as well. Um, I think in addition
to, to when entering a collaboration with other organizations or starting some
gap analysis analysis, it would probably be good to sort of carve out.

313
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:24:59.045 --> 01:25:08.285
For for iatf, because there is there are so many initiatives going on all over
the place. Uh, and, uh, uh.

314
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:25:08.554 --> 01:25:29.674
I think what we have during these days, we have we have been high level, we
have been on details. We have been going wide. We haven't been going narrow and
we have been on the principal level and the practical level. Uh, so I think it
would really be good to, to maybe sort out a niche on, on what I, what, what
could be the.

315
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:25:29.975 --> 01:25:50.705
Um, um, aspects, or, or the main, uh, value that could contribute what what
could you do that? No 1 else could do and the, the 2nd would be, uh, like, on
the advocating plan, which is, um, things that are maybe more high level but
but.

316
Pernilla Bergmark Ericsson 01:25:50.829 --> 01:26:05.764
Which might be ongoing in different places, but you want to push a certain
direction. So so I thought it could be good. That that could be a good way of
thinking to, to, to find the position in this guy or really quite complex
landscape.

317
Jari Arkko 01:26:10.475 --> 01:26:11.015
Fresh.

318
Suresh Krishnan 01:26:12.155 --> 01:26:30.305
Yeah, thank you. Thanks. Uh, uh, I think a really good point. I think, like,
Rob had a really good point, like, have a focal point. May not have to produce
work but at least like, where people can go and talk so totally up for that.
And I think 1 more thing I wanted to add is, like, there's some stuff that we
cannot do right? Like, I think like, vanilla brought it up. Like, Robert, a
bunch of people brought it up. I think.

319
Suresh Krishnan 01:26:30.364 --> 01:26:51.244
The can be the, the, the group that kind of dispatch it off to somebody else.
So we probably have some relationships with some other, like, where this work
can be done. So, if there's something we can figure out on, or send a link or
anything, right that we are actually talking to, uh, I think it might be a good
thing to kind of like, also pass information to other.

320
Suresh Krishnan 01:26:51.544 --> 01:26:56.494
Um, things that could be useful for us that we don't either have the expertise,
or don't want to do.

321
Eve Schooler 01:27:07.714 --> 01:27:10.054
I think you, uh, Bruce has his hand up.

322
Jari Arkko 01:27:11.164 --> 01:27:13.114
Thank you let's go ahead.

323
Bruce Nordman2 01:27:14.854 --> 01:27:25.174
Yeah, thank you very much. This has been a great session this last 4 days. Um,
I would just, like, raise 2 points 1, is that, as I mentioned a few days ago,
the.

324
Bruce Nordman2 01:27:25.299 --> 01:27:46.174
Energy use of all electronic devices is probably about an order of magnitude
larger than network equipment. And there are things that the and could do to
help reduce the energy use of those Internet connected electronic devices.
There would be probably larger than everything we could do to reduce the
energy. So, network equipment, and we should be mindful of that.

325
Bruce Nordman2 01:27:47.794 --> 01:28:07.594
Pay attention to that as well, but I think the thing that we could do that
would be the greatest affect on total carbon emissions globally would be to
help our electricity system move from the 19th century to the 21st century, our
electricity technology, whether it be wide area network.

326
Bruce Nordman2 01:28:08.015 --> 01:28:28.745
How electricity networks organized to even more importantly how this organized
locally within buildings is, as hardly changed in many important respects since
the 880 s and it desperately needs an upgrade. And I think we really don't
appreciate the fact that their Internet technology was a revolution that
overthrew our.

327
Bruce Nordman2 01:28:28.749 --> 01:28:48.904
Military phone system to move to a network model, and we desperately need to do
the same thing for electricity and we've done this. So, we know we've learned a
lot about how to sort of reinvent a technology on a networking model and the
electricity people really have a lack of vision in this area and desperately
need the help of.

328
Bruce Nordman2 01:28:50.854 --> 01:29:04.984
The people on this call, so so please, please help out that's far more carbon
at stake in improving our electricity system. So we can integrate more
renewables and reduce costs than everything else we could do. So, thank you.

329
Jari Arkko 01:29:10.354 --> 01:29:11.944
Hey, Hassan, did you want to say something.

330
Hosein Badran 01:29:12.874 --> 01:29:27.604
Yes, please Thank you. Thank you. Eric. Yes, I joined the, uh, the praise for
the workshop quite quite interesting. What what area of topics have been
discussed I think on the on the topic of, um, collaborating with other.

331
Hosein Badran 01:29:28.504 --> 01:29:34.894
I think it makes quite good sense to consider 1 of them as the and as.

332
Hosein Badran 01:29:35.674 --> 01:29:54.244
On the side, so the group 13 focused on future networks, looking at, um,
expansions of existing architectures, um, um, some, some, uh, new protocols
that could be considered and study group 5, or looks at the environment
environmental aspects of of.

333
Hosein Badran 01:29:54.935 --> 01:30:15.035
Um, I think it would be good critical and some expectation for, for the who
have has the protocol experience on the stack experience that that such
knowledge comes from from the, and also for reasons of continuity and also for
backwards compatibility.

334
Hosein Badran 01:30:16.085 --> 01:30:36.965
one of the issues is with proposals of protocol expansions and um and the new
enhancements that the interoperability with existing architecture could be
could be put at risk so it needs to be considered and i think will be the best
place to to ensure that whatever protocols extensions are being considered um
they would be um

335
Hosein Badran 01:30:37.084 --> 01:30:44.944
and backwards compatible and can co exist with existing architectures one area
it

336
Hosein Badran 01:30:45.814 --> 01:31:06.634
That could be, um, uh, at risk is too, too, with lack of interoperability. If
these protocols are done somewhere else, that, um, fragmentation of network
could be, would be, uh, could could take place. So, I think these are areas to
consider and I shared the view that collaboration in this vast space is
necessary.

337
Hosein Badran 01:31:06.694 --> 01:31:20.974
Because no entity has the whole experience of the value chain, but I think
also, um, we need to focus on where we have the expertise, and can lend our
expertise to other and collaborate on that in that front. Thank you.

338
Jari Arkko 01:31:22.595 --> 01:31:43.235
Yeah, good point. Um, and indeed collaboration is the way to go and finding
the, our niche is pretty loaded. I think, um, it's, um, is key and, um, we
don't own the whole whole problem on part of it. And even for the part that we
are working on, we need to maybe sometimes understand what's going on.

339
Jari Arkko 01:31:44.584 --> 01:31:46.144
Other parts, um.

340
Jari Arkko 01:31:47.584 --> 01:32:08.704
That's an example, if we want to play tricks on our side on, like, when when
things are up and down and so on, um, we would actually have to understand what
the leak layers do and whether that's beneficial or not under what
circumstances. So, there's a lot lots to, um, coordinate, but maybe even yeah,
possibly some meetings where there's more, uh, joined.

341
Jari Arkko 01:32:08.734 --> 01:32:27.664
This based on in this space, it might be useful thing. Um, looking at the time,
I think, um, I don't see anybody else having their hands up. Um, if not, then
I'll just go briefly to my final slides.

342
Jari Arkko 01:32:34.535 --> 01:32:38.315
I think, um, I think you see my screen. Yeah. Um.

343
Jari Arkko 01:32:39.964 --> 01:33:00.814
I I, I will have sort of a technical conclusions I'll cover that last, but so
that the next steps in the workshop, uh, we talked about that a little bit
earlier and Charles was asking about this, but a discussion on voice should
continue. We'll work on a draft report. Um, if if you are interested, please
contribute, we don't probably.

344
Jari Arkko 01:33:00.880 --> 01:33:22.025
50 people helping, but we would appreciate a couple, like, everybody, um, or a
person, at least for for each of the sections and the sections are rough like
our systems where, um, something like that would probably be helpful. We'll be
editing it with Colin. I I think, but, uh, but help would be appreciated.

345
Jari Arkko 01:33:22.054 --> 01:33:42.544
Have some discussions at the, um, I don't exactly know what the answer is in
terms of a new working group I think that needs more more discussion. Um, we
also heard about, um, yeah, even and, uh, service. I think you talked about the
sustainability considerations and trade offs document. Um, that's that's
clearly a possibility.

346
Jari Arkko 01:33:43.205 --> 01:34:00.125
Um, and that has been mentioned, there's some, some things that are in
progress, or at least should be in progress. Um, if, if you're having problems
getting your metrics approved in some working group, please yell and yell
loudly. And the rest of us can probably help. Um, try and help there.

347
Jari Arkko 01:34:02.585 --> 01:34:03.455
Um.

348
Jari Arkko 01:34:05.885 --> 01:34:21.545
I keep thinking that we're not doing enough if, if this is all where we do,
it's not probably enough. We'll probably have to do some other things. So if
you have ideas, please suggest maybe given the time. So, just on the, on the
chat window. Um.

349
Jari Arkko 01:34:24.244 --> 01:34:29.734
Yeah, um, before I go forward, Colleen, did you have anything else to say.

350
Colin Perkins 01:34:33.755 --> 01:34:42.785
Yeah, um, so to to wrap up from my point of view, uh, I mean, this has been an
interesting workshop. Um, certainly a lot of things to think about.

351
Colin Perkins 01:34:43.864 --> 01:35:04.954
um i think a lot of these uh short term things things we can do uh engineering
ways that can happen recently quickly um there's also clearly a bunch of
interesting research questions there's a bunch of things which are in scope for
the atf community a bunch of things which are a lot broader scope um i think

352
Colin Perkins 01:35:05.224 --> 01:35:26.074
As if said, uh, we need to remember the urgency, right? It's, it's easy to just
say we need to do more research. Um, and clearly we do need to do more
research. Um, but I think we need to build on the momentum and act, and maybe
develop some standards in the may be develop some changes and some work
elsewhere but we need.

353
Colin Perkins 01:35:26.134 --> 01:35:35.374
About how we actually affect practical change in the relatively matter. So I
think this has been interesting, but I think there's a lot more to do and I
look forward to doing that.

354
Jari Arkko 01:35:39.035 --> 01:35:58.535
thanks um we don't show one more thing but in the in the in the background or
in the meanwhile um we'd like to know how this workshop went and um given that
we're running out of time quickly then maybe we're not gonna do this verbally
so you could do two things you could comment in the chat we'll save the chat

355
Jari Arkko 01:35:58.774 --> 01:36:19.684
Once you feel like, you can also email me and Colin, um, and we'll, uh, collect
the the feedback and and try and build a build and understand what we did well,
or what could be improved. Certainly from my perspective, that's been a stellar
workshop. Really appreciate the diversity of, uh, backgrounds and opinions.

356
Jari Arkko 01:36:19.689 --> 01:36:40.834
And learning stuff, I at least personally gained in this work. So that's great.
I think there's, um, there's indeed, um, momentum and urgency and it doesn't
mean that we have to, like, do huge things right now. But it does mean that we
have to do some things every year and keep improving.

357
Jari Arkko 01:36:40.839 --> 01:37:01.984
I think that's that that is the way to go and, um, anyway, so the 11 more thing
that I wanted to show, and and this isn't complete by any any chance that I was
doing that on the background, while you guys were talking. So, uh, please,
excuse me, but, um, I did take some notes on, like, what are the.

358
Jari Arkko 01:37:02.015 --> 01:37:22.235
Patients 1 was on this continuous improvement and influence understanding how
intent can help the society understand what the situation is. And why is it
like it is and how could we affect that and understand the tradeoffs there's a
bunch of useful tools. Motto, discuss somewhat focused on.

359
Jari Arkko 01:37:23.255 --> 01:37:44.285
You know, naturally on the IDF protocol design issues on some of those
specifically on routing. Um, and it's probably a little bit broader than that
that we have to worry about that at least in terms of, like, in our day jobs.
Um, worry about the implementations worry about renewables as well as protocol
design, um, actions that we should.

360
Jari Arkko 01:37:45.124 --> 01:37:48.484
Continue the discussion, um.

361
Jari Arkko 01:37:49.955 --> 01:38:10.925
The idea to others, I think that's sort of a long term thing to how can we, you
know, not just have 1 meeting with somebody else, but make sure that we are on
the map and understand what's needed and have have the discussion partners. Uh,
W, where that actually matters maybe I'm sorry I triple sort of.

362
Jari Arkko 01:38:11.164 --> 01:38:23.134
Clear, uh, organizations come to mind, we should pick the low hanging fruits
the, uh, avoiding the link to formats the crypto assets and non renewable
energy.

363
Jari Arkko 01:38:25.415 --> 01:38:46.295
Big picture goals I think we should actually have a full industry understanding
of internet's impact and and, like, I'm not gonna join the, uh, CO rolls of
people saying that we shouldn't do research. We should act. I think we can
actually do both this, uh, to begin with, um, you know, we have researchers
participating in academia and there's a lot of interest in.

364
Jari Arkko 01:38:46.354 --> 01:39:06.694
Funding on this, these topics and, uh, we, we can actually do multiple things
at the same time. And, um, and the academia in particular is more geared
towards understanding than necessarily, uh, fixing products. For instance,
there's lots of research that needs doing. I think we should dive into that
somehow and.

365
Jari Arkko 01:39:07.804 --> 01:39:08.974
Yeah, um.

366
Jari Arkko 01:39:10.984 --> 01:39:13.654
I I, I think that's more or less it. Um.

367
Jari Arkko 01:39:15.724 --> 01:39:35.074
Clearly, um, we need to write up, uh, what happened in the workshop and
summarize it more nicely than than this slide. But, uh, a lot of really good
material and lots of leads for us to actually go and pursue and leads for
different timescales and short term. And long term, so.

368
Jari Arkko 01:39:36.005 --> 01:39:40.085
That's also really good because we also need the thing that we need to do in in
5 or 10 years. So.

369
Jari Arkko 01:39:41.824 --> 01:39:42.814
Think it's all good.

370
Jari Arkko 01:39:44.675 --> 01:39:46.355
Clean any final boards.

371
Colin Perkins 01:39:49.355 --> 01:39:55.025
Uh, I think you have covered everything really well, thank you for all your
efforts putting this together.

372
Jari Arkko 01:39:56.525 --> 01:39:58.355
Thank you. I, thank you. Everybody.

373
Jari Arkko 01:40:00.784 --> 01:40:20.464
Interesting and in particular, when people who commented and participate in the
list. So I think this is it for this workshop. Don't forget the mailing lists
keep, uh, um, sending us email. We'll try and see, um, how we can open it up
and, uh, and figure out what we will do in addition to the mentioned things.

374
Jari Arkko 01:40:20.824 --> 01:40:23.374
The next slide here, so do stay tuned.

375
Jari Arkko 01:40:27.754 --> 01:40:28.354
Thank you.