Minutes interim-2023-cellar-01: Tue 20:00
minutes-interim-2023-cellar-01-202301242000-00

Meeting Minutes Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission (cellar) WG
Date and time 2023-01-24 20:00
Title Minutes interim-2023-cellar-01: Tue 20:00
State Active
Other versions markdown
Last updated 2023-01-24

minutes-interim-2023-cellar-01-202301242000-00

CELLAR -- DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting

| Date | Time | Local Times |
| :-: :-: :-
| 2023-01-24 14:00 Amsterdam | Time Converter | |
| Note | Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam | |

Administrivia

INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2023-01

Note that we're now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes
here

MEETING INFO and WEB CONFERENCE:

info:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2023-cellar-01/session/cellar

https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=d340a5fa-8e80-4092-b480-53c684f0b32d

note that chat is now Zulip:
https://zulip.ietf.org/login/#narrow/stream/cellar

but is accessible via meetecho interface.

Shared HedgeDoc for notetaking

Now using the Datatracker assigned notepad at:
https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2023-cellar-01-cellar

  • Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you'll be able to
    edit/clarify/correct these notes, add your name to attendee lists,
    etc.

  • Please ask Michael or Spencer if you have questions.

2023 virtual interim meeting dates

Agenda Items

Note Well:

https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/
Please be KIND to each other.

Roll call

Attendees

  • Spencer Dawkins
  • Martijn van Beurden
  • Michael Richardsdon
  • Steve Lhomme
  • Jerome Martinez
  • Michael Niedermayer
  • Dave Rice

Regrets
*

Accept draft minutes from December 6, 2022

  • minutes accepted as presented.

WG status update

| Draft | State | Date Posted | Plans |
| :- :- :- :-
| draft-ietf-cellar-chapter-codecs-01 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-codec-09 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-control-01 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-v4-19 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-flac-07 | Waiting for Shepherd write-up | 2022-10-23 | anticipated to be one this month |
| draft-ietf-cellar-matroska-11 | AD Evaluation | 2022-10-01 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-tags-09 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |

FFV1 presentation at FOSDEM in open media dev-room on Saturday,
2023-02-04, 14:00.
https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/om_ffv1/

Milestone review:

  • FLAC waiting for Shepherd write up from Spencer.

Matroska issues - Discussion of shepherd writeup from Michael on the call.

  • document has been returned with AD comments
  • Our UIDs are not UUIDs - they're not what the IETF calls UUIDs.
  • The UUID specification is being revised, but we can recommend
    calling them UUID v4 and treat them as an opaque 128-bit string.
  • We have no idea what UUID v8 will be, of course ...
  • Do we forbid reuse of deprecated IDs? That's maximum compatibility,
    but reduces the size of the available ID space.
  • We don't know of usages (many? most?), but we can't know that no one
    has used a deprecated code point.
  • We can mark the deprecated IDs as "returned" not as "reserved", and
    we can instruct IANA to use "returned" IDs last.
  • This is for one-byte IDs - we can just lose the longer ID codes. We
    did this with DHCP option codes, so we have prior art here,
    including collisions and how to recover from that situation.
  • Spencer noted that this is a working group document, so we should
    make sure the working group still agrees with the document after
    changes.

FLAC issues - Discussion on the call

  • OPUS talks a lot about encoding, and the FLAC specification doesn't.
    Is that OK?
  • We tend to focus on decoders, and allow encoders to innovate. We can
    say what we want to say, but we should make a decision explicitly.
  • Martijn is still experimenting and making small corrections and
    clarifications, and that's fine.
  • We think June is a reasonable timeframe now.

FFV1 v4 issues - Discussion on the call

AOB?

  • Next meeting is 2023-02-28
  • Implementation report: ffmpeg has ffv1 in MXF patch!

Previous Minutes - CELLAR -- DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting

CELLAR -- DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting

| Date | Time | Local Times |
| :-: :-: :-
| 2022-12-06 | 21:00 Amsterdam | Time Converter |
| Note | Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam | |

Administrivia

INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2022-10

Note that we're now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes
here

MEETING INFO and WEB CONFERENCE:

info:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2022-cellar-10/session/cellar

https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=3f7f07f9-31be-4620-88b4-00dd130b8582

note that chat is now Zulip:
https://zulip.ietf.org/login/#narrow/stream/cellar

but is accessible via meetecho interface.

Shared HedgeDoc for notetaking

Now using the Datatracker assigned notepad at:
https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-cellar-10-cellar

  • Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you'll be able to
    edit/clarify/correct these notes, add your name to attendee lists,
    etc.

  • Please ask Michael or Spencer if you have questions.

2023 virtual interim meeting dates

Agenda Items

Note Well: https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/

Roll call

Attendees

  • Spencer Dawkins
  • Martijn van Beurden
  • Steve Lhomme
  • Jérôme Martinez
  • Michael Niedermayer
  • Ralph Giles

Regrets

  • Michael Richardson

Accept draft minutes from previous meeting (attached below)

  • Any objections? Please let us know on the mailing list.
  • Will defer approval until next meeting due to Spencer being a slug

Agree on proposed 2023 meeting dates

  • Sent to mailing list on 2022-11-29
  • Two date errors (thank you, Martijn van Beurden, for corrections),
    but these didn't change the possible conflicts
  • Current plan is that we move our March meeting to April 4, cancel
    our July meeting, move our November meeting to 2023-12-05, and
    cancel our December meeting
  • Steve Lhomme said "looks good to me"
  • Any other considerations before we send these to the secretariat?
  • (Do we know of any plans for an in-person NTTW in 2023?) Don't
    have a date at this time.
  • No objections on the call, Spencer will submit these requests.

| 4th Tuesday | Month | Does this date make sense for us? | If not, what do we do instead? |
|----------
| 2023-01-24 | JAN | | |
| 2023-02-28 | FEB | | |
| 2023-03-28 | MAR | IETF 116 is 2023-03-25 to 2023-03-31 | Schedule for April 4 instead |
| 2023-04-25 | APR | Easter is 2023-04-09 | |
| 2023-05-23 | MAY | | |
| 2023-06-28 | JUN | | |
| 2023-07-25 | JUL | IETF 117 is 2023-07-22 to 2023-07-28 | cancel |
| 2023-08-22 | AUG | | |
| 2023-09-26 | SEP | | |
| 2023-10-24 | OCT | | |
| 2023-11-28 | NOV | IETF 118 is 2023-11-04 to 2023-11-10, US Thanksgiving is 2023-11-23 | Schedule for Dec 5 instead |
| 2023-12-26 | DEC | Christmas EveBoxing Day | cancel |

WG status update

Milestone review:

  • MATROSKA - We are waiting for Murray's AD evaluation of this draft.
  • FLAC - Has completed WGLC. We are waiting on Spencer's Shepherd
    Write-up of this draft.
  • Thanks for posting updates of all of our working group drafts.
  • What are we focusing on next, now that Matroska and FLAC are leaving
    the working group?
  • Codec document or tag document? Codec document is long, but tag may
    generate a lot of discussion - we can do this in parallel, like EBML
    and Matroska
  • We can wait on FFV1v4 for a while ... not urgent, when we have time
  • We can update milestones when Michael is available (via email)

From Steve Lhomme - are we ready for a document that handles EBML errata?

  • Submitted errata are here.
  • We have 9 reported errata, including 6 technical.
  • We have proposed text for all 9 errata.
  • Question from Chris Smiley at RFC-Editor: "If you decide to verify
    EID 7192 (sent in a previous message on 11/01/22), should EID 7193
    be combined with it?"
  • From Michael on 2022-10-31 - "Yes, we should start RFC8794bis now,
    but not rush"
  • From Spencer - "when are we likely to uncover more EBML errata?"
  • Spencer will discuss adding milestone for this with Michael and with
    Murray

Debrief on In-person meeting - defer until next meeting, when Michael is available

October 28, 1200UTC, The Hague.
details:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2022-cellar-11/session/cellar

https://www.digitalmeetsculture.net/article/no-time-to-wait-conference/

  • Is scheduling an in-person meeting at NTTW a good thing to do?

Matroska issues - Discussion on the call.

  • We are waiting for Murray's AD evaluation of this draft.
  • Steve will review issue #682 on additional mappings (for codec
    document). Not blocking Matroska base specification publication, but
    would be good to resolve

FLAC issues - Discussion on the call

  • Has completed WGLC. We are waiting on Spencer's Shepherd Write-up of
    this draft.
  • Martijn - two PRs against FLAC, small changes. OK for Spencer to
    review current revision, and we'll update the draft before
    requesting publication

FFV1 v4 issues - Discussion on the call

  • deferring for a bit, because (as noted above) this isn't urgent

AOB?

  • Next meeting is 2023-01-24, if approved by our AD