Minutes interim-2023-cellar-02: Tue 20:00
minutes-interim-2023-cellar-02-202302282000-00

Meeting Minutes Codec Encoding for LossLess Archiving and Realtime transmission (cellar) WG
Date and time 2023-02-28 20:00
Title Minutes interim-2023-cellar-02: Tue 20:00
State Active
Other versions markdown
Last updated 2023-04-02

minutes-interim-2023-cellar-02-202302282000-00

CELLAR -- DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting

| Date | Time | Local Times |
| :-: :-: :-
| 2023-02-28 21:00 Amsterdam | Time Converter | |
| Note | Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam | |

Administrivia

INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2023-02

Note that we're now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes
here

MEETING INFO and WEB CONFERENCE:

info:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2023-cellar-02/session/cellar

https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=8a8f2003-11c7-4564-88fe-46b1c0c93049

note that chat is now Zulip:
https://zulip.ietf.org/login/#narrow/stream/cellar

but is accessible via meetecho interface.

Shared HedgeDoc for notetaking

Now using the Datatracker assigned notepad at:
https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2023-cellar-02-cellar

  • Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you'll be able to
    edit/clarify/correct these notes, add your name to attendee lists,
    etc.

  • Please ask Michael or Spencer if you have questions.

2023 virtual interim meeting dates

Agenda Items

Note Well:

https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/
Please be KIND to each other.

Roll call

Attendees

  • Spencer Dawkins
  • Martijn van Beurden
  • Jérôme Martinez
  • Michael Niedermayer
  • Steve Lhomme
  • Martin Below
  • Michael Richardson
  • Dave Rice

Regrets

  • Michael Richardson must leave at 21:45.

Accept draft minutes from 2023-01-24

  • no comments, accepted as is.

WG status update

| Draft | State | Date Posted | Plans |
| :- :- :- :-
| draft-ietf-cellar-chapter-codecs-01 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-codec-09 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-control-01 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-v4-19 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-flac-07 | Waiting for Shepherd write-up | 2022-10-23 | Shepherd notes sent to mailing list for February meeting |
| draft-ietf-cellar-matroska-15 | In Last Call (ends 2023-02-28) | 2023-02-11 | Last Call ends 2023-02-28 |
| draft-ietf-cellar-tags-09 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |

Milestone review:

  • IESG Balloting is next step for Matroska
  • AD Evaluation is next step for FLAC

Matroska issues - Discussion of Last Call comments on the call.

  • Need to discuss EBML Lacing details are incorrect #726 issue on
    the call
  • Clarification of how the negative VINTs are occuring from #726,
    clarification belongs in the Matroska specification on how to
    represent these negative VINTs.
  • explains when/where the document goes next... to IESG for balloting.

FLAC issues - Discussion on the call

FFV1 v4 issues - Discussion on the call

  • (From Spencer) Any Feedback from FOSDEM FFV1 presentation?

    • nothing specific
    • some questions about interactions with JPEG-XL - JPEG-XL started
      with FFV1
    • what is the performance of the different formats, needs some
      sample files (for different patent-less formats)

  • small wish list is in issue tracker:
    https://github.com/FFmpeg/FFV1/issues

  • we will go through the issues and prioritize them.

AOB?

  • (from Spencer) Is it useful to discuss how much we want to rely on
    the RFC Errata process for specifications with source text in GitHub
    at a future meeting?
  • (from Spencer) Is it useful to go over the post-WGLC publication
    process at a future meeting?
  • Next meeting is 2023-04-04 (and then 2023-04-25)

Previous Minutes - CELLAR -- DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting

CELLAR -- DRAFT AGENDA for Virtual Interim Meeting

| Date | Time | Local Times |
| :-: :-: :-
| 2023-01-24 14:00 Amsterdam | [ | |
| ](https://savvytime.com/converter/netherlands-amsterdam-to-utc-ny-new-york-city-ca-san-francisco/jun-22-2021/9pm) | | |
| Note | Meeting time is anchored to Amsterdam | |

Administrivia

INFO:

https://github.com/ietf-wg-cellar/chair-notes/tree/master/interim-2023-01

Note that we're now pointing to the Github repo for chair notes
here

MEETING INFO and WEB CONFERENCE:

info:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2023-cellar-01/session/cellar

https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=d340a5fa-8e80-4092-b480-53c684f0b32d

note that chat is now Zulip:
https://zulip.ietf.org/login/#narrow/stream/cellar

but is accessible via meetecho interface.

Shared HedgeDoc for notetaking

Now using the Datatracker assigned notepad at:
https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2023-cellar-01-cellar

  • Note that if you log in to the IETF datatracker, you'll be able to
    edit/clarify/correct these notes, add your name to attendee lists,
    etc.

  • Please ask Michael or Spencer if you have questions.

2023 virtual interim meeting dates

Agenda Items

Note Well:

https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/
Please be KIND to each other.

Roll call

Attendees

  • Spencer Dawkins
  • Martijn van Beurden
  • Michael Richardsdon
  • Steve Lhomme
  • Jerome Martinez
  • Michael Niedermayer
  • Dave Rice

Regrets
*

Accept draft minutes from December 6, 2022

  • minutes accepted as presented.

WG status update

| Draft | State | Date Posted | Plans |
| :- :- :- :-
| draft-ietf-cellar-chapter-codecs-01 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-codec-09 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-control-01 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-ffv1-v4-19 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-flac-07 | Waiting for Shepherd write-up | 2022-10-23 | anticipated to arrive before February meeting |
| draft-ietf-cellar-matroska-11 | AD Evaluation | 2022-10-01 | |
| draft-ietf-cellar-tags-09 | ID Exists | 2022-12-04 | |

FFV1 presentation at FOSDEM in open media dev-room on Saturday,
2023-02-04, 14:00.
https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/om_ffv1/

Milestone review:

  • FLAC waiting for Shepherd write up from Spencer

Matroska issues - Discussion of AD review comments from Murray Kucherawy on the call.

  • document has been returned with AD comments
  • Steve Lhomme has been very responsive in providing PRs and
    explanations to Murray (Thank you, Steve!)
  • One PR is still open - we'll discuss on the call
  • Our UIDs are not UUIDs - they're not what the IETF calls UUIDs.
  • The UUID specification is being revised, but we can recommend
    calling them UUID v4 and treat them as an opaque 128-bit string.
  • We have no idea what UUID v8 will be, of course ...
  • Do we forbid reuse of deprecated IDs? That's maximum compatibility,
    but reduces the size of the available ID space.
  • We don't know of usages (many? most?), but we can't know that no one
    has used a deprecated code point.
  • We can mark the deprecated IDs as "returned" not as "reserved", and
    we can instruct IANA to use "returned" IDs last.
  • This is for one-byte IDs - we can just lose the longer ID codes. We
    did this with DHCP option codes, so we have prior art here,
    including collisions because people were reusing "unused" option
    codes without coordinating with others, and how to recover from that
    situation.
  • Spencer noted that this is a working group document, so we should
    make sure the working group still agrees with the document after
    changes.

FLAC issues - Discussion on the call

  • OPUS talks a lot about encoding, and the FLAC specification doesn't.
    Is that OK?
  • We tend to focus on decoders, and allow encoders to innovate. We can
    say what we want to say, but we should make a decision explicitly.
  • Martijn is still experimenting and making small corrections and
    clarifications, and that's fine.
  • We think June is a reasonable timeframe now.

FFV1 v4 issues - Discussion on the call

AOB?

  • Next meeting is 2023-02-28
  • Implementation report: ffmpeg has ffv1 in MXF patch!