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2019-06-18: Minutes

Meeting Slides IETF-IEEE (ietfieee) IAB ASG Snapshot
Date and time 2022-01-01 00:00
Title 2019-06-18: Minutes
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Last updated 2022-06-10

Minutes of the 2019-06-18 IETF-IEEE 802 Coordination Teleconference

1. Welcome, roll call, agenda bashing


- Randy Bush
- Alissa Cooper
- Janos Farkas
- Ted Hardie
- Russ Housley
- Mirja Kühlewind
- Scott Mansfield
- Roger Marks
- Cindy Morgan
- Paul Nikolich
- Alvaro Retana
- Dorothy Stanley
- Pascal Thubert
- Magnus Westerlund
- Peter Yee

2. Action item updates

  - In Progress:

    o Bob Heile to send a short description of 802's LPA project with 
      pointers to Russ Housley for inclusion in the coordination list.
      (Added 2018-06-28)

    o Dorothy Stanley and Russ Housley to investigate the need for 
      adding a coordination item on source address validation for 
      (Added 2019-02-20)

  - Done:

    o Alvaro Retana and Russ Housley to write up a description for a new 
      coordination item on interactions between IETF LSVR and IEEE 802.1 
      regarding the IETF's LSoE protocol and a consideration for a new 
      LLDPv2 protocol in 802.1.
      (Added 2019-02-20)

  - New:

    o Dorothy Stanley to ask Bob Heile for a status update on 
      (Added 2019-06-18)

    o Russ Housley to contact the IETF Security ADs and ask who will 
      take over ownership of the pervasive monitoring coordination item 
      from Eric Rescorla, who stepped down from the IESG in March 2019.
      (Added 2019-06-18)

    o Janos Farkas to send a liaison on 802E to the IETF Security ADs.
      (Added 2019-06-18)

3. IETF New Work summary

  - Applications and Real-Time

    ADD - Applications Using DoH - Discussions at the DoG WG and a side
    meeting at IETF104 suggest there appears to be significant interest
    in examining in the operational aspects of DoH deployment,
    particularly in operator and enterprise networks. This lead to
    the creation of the ADD mailing list where some of these issues
    have been discussed. The proposed BoF intends to establish if
    there are sufficient potential work items and enough interest at
    the IETF to justify the creation of a new Working Group which
    would focus on these topics.

  - General

    NETRQMTS - IETF Meeting Network Requirements - NOT WG Forming - The
    IETF meeting network has a long history of pushing beyond the bounds
    of normal event networks. This BoF will gather community input on
    the network requirements for IETF meetings, including prioritization
    and the resource implications associated with those requirements.

  - Internet

  - Operations and Management

    MOPS - Media OPerationS - The purpose of this BoF is to highlight 
    the many existing video activities that are leveraging IETF protocol 
    work, identify gaps in IETF work and/or areas of incompatibility 
    with video technology development efforts being carried out 
    elsewhere, and identify a core group of IETF participants working on 
    video activities across the IETF’s technology areas.

  - Routing

  - Security

    CACAO - Collaborative Automated Course of Action Operations (CACAO)
    for Cyber Security - To defend against threat actors and their 
    tactics, techniques, and procedures, organizations need to manually
    identify, create, and document prevention, mitigation, and
    remediation steps.  These steps when grouped together into a course
    of action (COA) / playbook are used to protect systems, networks,
    data, and users.  The problem is, once these steps have been created
    there is no standardized and structured way to document them, verify
    they were correctly executed, or easily share them across
    organizational boundaries and technology stacks.  The intent is to
    charter a working group that will create a standard that implements
    the playbook model for cybersecurity operations.

    LAKE - Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange - Constrained
    environments using OSCORE in network environments such as NB-IoT,
    6TiSCH, and LoRaWAN need a 'lightweight' authenticated key exchange 
    that enables forward security. 'Lightweight' refers to resource
    consumption, measured by bytes on the wire, wall-clock time to
    complete, or power consumption; and the amount of new code
    required on end systems which already have an OSCORE stack. 

  - Transport

    LOOPS - Local Optimizations on Path Segments - Performance Enhancing
    Proxies (PEPs) have been used to improve performance over paths with
    links of varying quality, often peeking (and poking!) into the
    transport protocol.  Encryption is putting an end to this practice.
    At the same time, more powerful network nodes are becoming 
    available, making it more viable to trade processing power in 
    network nodes against path quality.  Transport protocols and their 
    implementations are moving towards playing better with forwarding 
    node functions such as ECN marking and AQM.

4. 802 New Work summary

  - 802.1ABdh -Amendment - Support for Multiframe Protocol Data Units

  Janos Farkas reported that this PAR amendment relates to the item on 
  the coordination list about capability discovery.

  Alvaro Retana noted that the LSVR Working Group received a liaison 
  statement from 802.1 on LSVR's work on LSoE.

  - 802.1Qdj - Amendment - Configuration Enhancements

  Janos Farkas reported that this PAR is about enhancing the Time-
  Sensitive Networking configuration' to specify enhancements to the 
  User/Network Interface (UNI) to include new capabilities to support 
  bridges and end stations in order to extend the configuration 

  - 802.1Qcj - Amendment - Automatic Attachment to Provider Backbone 
    Bridging (PBB) services, PAR extension 

  Janos Farkas noted that this is an extension of an existing PAR that 
  will not finish its work items by the end of the year.

  - 802.3cv - Amendment - Maintenance #15: Power over Ethernet

  Dorothy Stanley reported that this is a PAR amendment to incorporate 
  technical corrections and clarifications.

  - 802.11ay - Amendment -  Enhanced Throughput for Operation in 
    License-Exempt Bands Above 45 GHz, PAR Extension

  Dorothy Stanley noted that this is an extension of an existing PAR 
  that will not finish its work items by the end of the year.

  - 802.11az - Amendment - Next Generation Positioning (NGP), PAR 

  Dorothy Stanley noted that this is an extension of an existing PAR 
  that will not finish its work items by the end of the year.

  - 802.15.9ma- Standard, Transport of Key Management Protocol (KMP) 

  Dorothy Stanley reported that this PAR is for a change in scope to 
  move 802.15.9 from a recommended practice to a standard.

5. Review current coordination items

  - Item 3. IETF NVO3 and IEEE 802.1 DCB

  Janos Farkas reported that 802.1Qcy is currently with the IEEE editor. 
  This item will be closed once 802.1Qcy is published.

  - Item 5. Enabling use of Local Addresses for virtualization and IoT

  Russ Housley reported that the DHC WG adopted draft-ietf-dhc-mac-
  assign in April 2019, and it will be coordinated with 802 once it is 

  Janos Farkas reported that 802.1CQ will be coordinated with the IETF 
  once it is stable.

  - Item 11. IETF and IEEE 802.1 OmniRAN TG

  802.1CF was published in May 2019. This coordination item will be 

  - Item 21. 6tisch

  Pascal Thubert reported that 6TISCH is mostly done with its work. 
  draft-ietf-6tisch-architecture is currently in IETF Last Call.

  Pascal Thubert noted that he was not sure about the current status of 
  802.15.12, except that it should be coordinated with the IETF once it 
  is stable. 

    * Action item: Dorothy Stanley to ask Bob Heile for a status update 
      on 802.15.12.

  - Item 24. Coordination between the IETF and IEEE 802 on Pervasive 

    * Action item: Russ Housley to contact the IETF Security ADs and ask 
      who will take over ownership of this coordination item from Eric 
      Rescorla, who stepped down from the IESG in March 2019.

  Janos Farkas reported that 802E is stable. Paul Nikolich suggested 
  that he send a liaison to the IETF Security ADs with a pointer to the 
  document and instructions on how to comment on the ballot.

    * Action item: Janos Farkas to send a liaison on 802E to the IETF 
      Security ADs.

  - Item 25. Layer2/Layer 3 Interaction for Time-Sensitive Traffic

  Janos Farkas reported that draft-ietf-detnet-architecture is currently 
  in the RFC Editor Queue.

  draft-ietf-detnet-use-cases (RFC 8578) and draft-ietf-detnet-problem-
  statement (RFC 8557) were both published in May 2019.

  - Item 27. Development of YANG models in the IEEE 802

  Scott Mansfield reported that 802 has identified the missing metadata 
  and plans to have it added to by the end of July 2019.
  Russ Housley reported that the operations of have 
  moved to the IETF Secretariat, but that nothing about how the catalog 
  is run has changed.

  - Item 30. Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS)

  Russ Housley reported that draft-ietf-ipwave-ipv6-over-80211ocb iw 
  currently in IETF Last Call.

  Dorothy Stanley reported that IEEE 802.11bd is making good progress.

  - Item 31. LPWAN

  Pascal Thubert reported that 802.15.4w is seeking feedback from the 
  IETF Internet Area.

  - Item 32. Source Address Validation for Wireless LAN 

  Dorothy Stanley reported that 802.11 received a request to review 
  draft-bi-savi-wlan. Peter Yee added that he raised the issue with the 
  architecture standing committee, but that they did not feel that they 
  had the expertise needed to comment.

  Pascal Thubert reported that the 6LO Working Group published RFC 8505, 
  "Registration Extensions for IPv6 over Low-Power Wireless Personal 
  Area Network (6LoWPAN) Neighbor Discovery." The group is now working 
  on draft-ietf-6lo-ap-nd, which has been submitted to the IESG for 
  publication and should go out for Last Call soon. 802.11 will be asked 
  to review draft-ietf-6lo-ap-nd during Last Call.

  - Item 33. Capability Discovery

  Russ Housley noted that this item is related to the PAR amendment for 

  Alvaro Retana reported that LSVR and TSN have had good communication 
  back and forth. He noted that the description of this item should be 
  updated to note that the coordinated work item in LSVR relates to 
  Layer 3 Discovery and Liveness (L3DL), rather than Link State over 
  Ethernet (LSoE).

  - Potential New Items

  Mirja Kühlewind noted that the IPPM Working Group is taking on work 
  for ethertype protocol identification in IOAM; there is currently an 
  individual draft (draft-weis-ippm-ioam-eth) on this work.

6. Assess need for breakfast meeting during the 2019 July IETF meeting 
   (Montreal 21-26 July)

  The group agreed that there was no need to meet during IETF 105 in 

7. Adjourn


Post-meeting addendum from Pascal Thubert:

From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <>
Subject: Re: [ieee-ietf-coord] Draft Minutes from the 2019-06-19 IETF-IEEE 802 Coordination Meeting
Date: June 24, 2019 at 7:56:43 AM PDT

Dear all:
As a follow up on the discussion of SAVI and IEEE 802.11. 
Please note that I published draft-thubert-6man-ipv6-over-wireless to 
explain better the issues with the SAVI draft and how RFC 8505 family 
solves them.

Please note that as an implementor of SAVI in my company’s Wi-Fi gear, I 
have a first-hand view on these issues. In the introduction you’ll find 
the following:
   Discovering peer addresses by snooping the IPV6 ND protocol as
   proposed for SAVI [] was found to be unreliable.  An
   IPv6 address may not be discovered immediately due to a packet loss,
   or if a "silent" node is not currently using one of its addresses,
   e.g., a node that waits in wake-on-lan state.  A change of state,
   e.g. due to a movement, may be missed or misordered, leading to
   unreliable connectivity and an incomplete knowledge of the set of
   Wireless ND (WiND) introduces a new approach to IPv6 ND that is
   designed to apply to the WLANs and WPANs types of networks.  On the
   one hand, WiND avoids the use of broadcast operation for Address
   Resolution and Duplicate Address Detection, and on the other hand,
   WiND supports use cases where Subnet and MAC-level domains are not
   congruent, which is common in those types of networks unless a
   specific MAC-Level emulation is provided.
   To achieve this, WiND applies routing inside the Subnets, which
   enables MultiLink Subnets.  Hosts register their addresses to their
   serving routers with [RFC8505].  With the registration, routers have
   a complete knowledge of the hosts they serve and in return, hosts
   obtain routing services for their registered addresses.  The
   registration is abstract to the routing protocol, and it can be
   protected to prevent impersonation attacks with [I-D.ietf-6lo-ap-nd].
   The routing service can be a simple reflexion in a Hub-and-Spoke
   Subnet that emulates an IEEE Std 802.11 Infrastructure BSS at Layer
   3.  It can also be a full-fledge routing protocol, in particular RPL
   [RFC6550] that was designed to adapt to various LLNs such as WLAN and
   WPAN radio meshes with the concept of Objective Function.  Finally,
   the routing service can also be ND proxy that emulates an IEEE Std
   802.11 Infrastructure ESS at Layer 3.  WiND specifies the IPv6
   Backbone Router for that purpose in [I-D.ietf-6lo-backbone-router].
   More details on WiND can be found in Section 4.1.

I’m happy to discuss the draft on this list but would rather we copy 
6MAN since I plan to present the draft there.
All the best,