Minutes interim-2022-dnsop-02: Mon 17:00
minutes-interim-2022-dnsop-02-202209261700-00
Meeting Minutes | Domain Name System Operations (dnsop) WG | |
---|---|---|
Date and time | 2022-09-26 15:00 | |
Title | Minutes interim-2022-dnsop-02: Mon 17:00 | |
State | Active | |
Other versions | plain text | |
Last updated | 2022-09-27 |
minutes-interim-2022-dnsop-02-202209261700-00
# DNS Operations (DNSOP) Working Group ## interim-2022-dnsop-02 ### Chairs * Benno Overeinder [benno@nlnetlabs.nl](benno@nlnetlabs.nl) * Suzanne Woolf [suzworldwide@gmail.com](suzworldwide@gmail.com) * Tim Wicinski [tjw.ietf@gmail.com](tjw.ietf@gmail.com) ### IESG Overlord * Warren Kumari [warren@kumari.net](warren@kumari.net) ### Document Status * [Github](https://github.com/ietf-wg-dnsop/wg-materials/blob/main/dnsop-document-status.md) * [Datatracker](https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/documents/) * [Propose Slides](https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2022-dnsop-02/session/dnsop) ## Session interim-2022-dnsop-02 * Date: 26 September 2022 * Time: 15:00-16:00 UTC * MeetEcho: [https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=40f2f302-13a7-477b-b6fd-3d3d0754f05f](https://meetings.conf.meetecho.com/interim/?short=40f2f302-13a7-477b-b6fd-3d3d0754f05f) * Jabber: [dnsop@jabber.ietf.org](dnsop@jabber.ietf.org) * Minutes: [https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-dnsop-02-dnsop](https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-dnsop-02-dnsop) ## Agenda ### Administrivia * Agenda Bashing, Blue Sheets, etc, 5 min ### Current Working Group Business * DNS Terminology - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc8499bis/ - Paul Hoffman and Kazunori Fujiwara, 55 min - Chairs Action: Paul Hoffman(PH): Are we interept original document; or new definitions based on current DNS usage ### Definition of Bailiwick * Number of proposals * Definition of in-bailiwick - in-domain - sibling domain - out-of-bailiwick Warren Kumari(WK): should not fully drop a definition, but note no longer using. PH: What should be saying on how its defined. John Levine(JH): don't try to define now PH: Has been used in the past, but we don't really know anymore Jim Reid(JR): drop the term in-baliwick we must mention not to define it * Drop the term “in-bailiwick” - Only use “in-domain” and “sibling domain”? **Action** Pull the formal definition and write a historical definition * Scope of use of bailiwick - Strict use with A/AAAA: “needed for DNS resolution” - Other RR types for DNSSEC, SVCB, … PH: in-baliwick consensus call Old vs Current; Current means future Kazunori Fujiwara: I think the terms *bailiwick, in-domain, sibling are necessary for glue is not optional draft. (in-domain glue is necessary, sibling glue is optional, out-of-bailiwick glue SHOULD be ignored) ### Definition of Glue * Definition of glue (on DNSOP mailing list, plus some small amendments) - “Glue is non-authoritative data in a zone that is transmitted in the additional section of a referral response on the basis that the data might be necessary for resolution to proceed at the referred name servers.” * Necessary vs. useful discussion - too broad definition? - use “glue for in-domain/sibling domain name servers” as a term (from draft glue-is-not-optional) PH: definition of glue has changed over time Duane Wessels: This definition does not say which RRTypes are used, we may need a registry Narrow definition for now. List of RRTypes Defintion use necessary or useful **Action** wording on in-domain ### Definition of Sibling Glue * Definition of sibling zone and glue * Sibling zones: two zones whose delegations are in the same parent zone. * Sibling glue: addresses of nameservers that are in a sibling zone. * Necessary vs. useful interpretation - Same as for in-domain glue? sibling zone sibling glue ``` Jim Reid 11:01 Is anyone speaking or is my audio bust? Eliot Lear 11:02 I can hear you Sean Turner 11:02 I can hear. Warren Kumari 11:02 I can hear you Suzanne Woolf 11:02 Benno sounds fine Tim Wicinski 11:02 https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-dnsop-02-dnsop?edit Jim Reid 11:02 Thanks Benno. I hear you OK. Tim Wicinski 11:02 I'll be taking notes today But primary today is putting together wording on baliwick Kazunori Fujiwara 11:07 draft-ietf-dnsop-glue-is-not-optional-06 uses "in-domain" and "sibling", However, it does not define these words and does not refer RFC8499... Tim Wicinski 11:08 Correct - what should come out of this discussion is terminology that the glue-is-not-optional draft will use. My opinion is that one goal of the terminology doc was to create current definitions but we want to hear from y'all I copied/pasted the 8499 text at the end of the HedgeDoc https://notes.ietf.org/notes-ietf-interim-2022-dnsop-02-dnsop?edit Kazunori Fujiwara 11:15 "in-bailiwick" is often used in non-IETF documents. Warren Kumari 11:15 "current definitions" + a note that the definition has changed over time so that people reading historic documents are not confused? Or jsut "this is what it means, be told" ? Wes Hardaker 11:17 it exists in way too many docs and logs to not define it PE 11:17 so you mean definition as more histrorical context than current best use of term? Warren Kumari 11:17 @PE : Yah, kinda. "I jsut read a document with this term, but had no idea what it means" help... Tim Wicinski 11:20 broken up on my end Warren Kumari 11:20 Not just at Benos emd. Audio dropped out for me too John Levine 11:20 Yes, and don not try to define it now Roy Arends 11:21 audio dropped here too John Levine 11:21 Sorry bad ipad audio Only as a historical use Suzanne Woolf 11:22 IMO it's okay to admit the term is widely used but ambiguous. Paul Hoffman 11:24 I like "historical term" Duane Wessels 11:24 agreed Tim Wicinski 11:25 yes Kazunori Fujiwara 11:26 For "in-domain" and "sibling", there was no clear definition of terminology before RFC 7719, but I thought it was necessary, so I borrowed terminology from Peter Koch's draft. Jim Reid 11:27 @ Wes, I think it's impractical to come up with definitions for how that term as been used in all those non-IETF docs. IMO a "we chose not do that" is the right way forward. Tim Wicinski 11:29 "Pull the formal definition of baliwick and write a historical definition" Kazunori Fujiwara 11:29 I think the terms *bailiwick, in-domain, sibling are necessary for glue is not optional draft. Tim Wicinski 11:29 I do agree Duane Wessels 11:31 no audio, I'll use chat is this slide really about use of glue? rather than use of in-bailiwick? Warren Kumari 11:32 I don't really care -- for my use case, I'm assuming people can solve their issue with: https://www.google.com/search?q=in+ballwick Duane Wessels 11:32 ok, thanks yes I think that would be best I'd rather not define the terms in the glue is not optional doc agreed Tim Wicinski 11:35 strict definition or more ambigious historical? Duane Wessels 11:36 sorry still no audio for me Kazunori Fujiwara 11:39 (in-domain glue is necessary, sibling glue is optional, out-of-bailiwick glue is unnecessary) Tim Wicinski 11:39 Thank You Kazunori ! Kazunori Fujiwara 11:40 (out-of-bailiwick glue SHOULD be ignored, sorry) Tim Wicinski 11:41 I'm happy of not updating 2181 John Levine 11:42 Agree with Paul, most useful to describe fuzzy existing practice then I hope say this is the preferred meaning Kazunori Fujiwara 11:43 RFC 2181 5.4.1 Ranking Data seems to target older nameserver implementations that merge all the data. Tim Wicinski 11:48 My feeling is in the future something like SVCB may become glue, we're not there yet Kazunori Fujiwara 11:52 Is the EXCHANGE A/AAAA that comes with the MX RR glue ? John Levine 11:52 Not as I've ever understood it Duane Wessels 11:53 @kazunori I'd say no because those could be done as a separate query John Levine 11:54 we had a big fight about sibling glue since it only works sometimes Kazunori Fujiwara 11:56 in-domain, sibling, out-of-bailiwick are exclusive. in-bailiwick = in-domain + sibling Warren Kumari 11:58 I dont. Paul Hoffman 11:58 Please: no Peter Thomassen 11:58 I'll have to leave Warren Kumari 11:58 I have another meeting now Eliot Lear 11:58 nah Paul Hoffman 11:59 It's not a short conversation Eliot Lear 11:59 ^^^ Sean Turner 11:59 until next time Eliot Lear 11:59 thanks chairs Kazunori Fujiwara12:00 Thank you. Suzanne Woolf12:00 Thanks all, this was a good session!