Secure Shell (SSH) Key Exchange Method Using Hybrid Streamlined NTRU Prime sntrup761 and X25519 with SHA-512: sntrup761x25519-sha512
draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-06
Revision differences
Document history
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2026-04-10
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(System) | Received changes through RFC Editor sync (changed state to RFC, created became rfc relationship between draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh and RFC 9941, changed IESG state to RFC … Received changes through RFC Editor sync (changed state to RFC, created became rfc relationship between draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh and RFC 9941, changed IESG state to RFC Published) |
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2026-04-08
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06 | (System) | RFC Editor state changed to AUTH48-DONE from AUTH48 |
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2026-03-07
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06 | (System) | RFC Editor state changed to AUTH48 |
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2026-02-26
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06 | (System) | RFC Editor state changed to RFC-EDITOR from EDIT |
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2025-10-09
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06 | (System) | IANA Action state changed to RFC-Ed-Ack from Waiting on RFC Editor |
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2025-10-08
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06 | (System) | IANA Action state changed to Waiting on RFC Editor from Waiting on Authors |
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2025-10-08
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06 | (System) | RFC Editor state changed to EDIT from AUTH |
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2025-10-06
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06 | (System) | IANA Action state changed to Waiting on Authors from In Progress |
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2025-10-01
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06 | (System) | RFC Editor state changed to AUTH from EDIT |
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2025-10-01
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06 | (System) | RFC Editor state changed to EDIT |
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2025-10-01
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06 | (System) | IESG state changed to RFC Ed Queue from Approved-announcement sent |
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2025-10-01
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06 | (System) | Announcement was received by RFC Editor |
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2025-09-30
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06 | (System) | IANA Action state changed to In Progress |
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2025-09-30
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06 | (System) | Removed all action holders (IESG state changed) |
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2025-09-30
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06 | Morgan Condie | IESG state changed to Approved-announcement sent from Approved-announcement to be sent |
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2025-09-30
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06 | Morgan Condie | IESG has approved the document |
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2025-09-30
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06 | Morgan Condie | Closed "Approve" ballot |
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2025-09-30
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06 | Morgan Condie | Ballot approval text was generated |
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2025-09-30
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06 | Morgan Condie | Ballot writeup was changed |
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2025-09-30
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06 | Deb Cooley | IESG state changed to Approved-announcement to be sent from Approved-announcement to be sent::AD Followup |
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2025-09-30
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06 | (System) | Changed action holders to Deb Cooley (IESG state changed) |
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2025-09-30
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06 | (System) | Sub state has been changed to AD Followup from Revised I-D Needed |
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2025-09-30
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06 | Simon Josefsson | New version available: draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-06.txt |
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2025-09-30
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06 | (System) | New version approved |
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2025-09-30
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06 | (System) | Request for posting confirmation emailed to previous authors: Jan Mojzis , Markus Friedl , Simon Josefsson |
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2025-09-30
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06 | Simon Josefsson | Uploaded new revision |
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2025-08-21
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05 | (System) | Changed action holders to Markus Friedl, Jan Mojzis, Simon Josefsson (IESG state changed) |
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2025-08-21
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05 | Morgan Condie | IESG state changed to Approved-announcement to be sent::Revised I-D Needed from IESG Evaluation |
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2025-08-21
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05 | Morgan Condie | Changed consensus to Yes from Yes |
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2025-08-21
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05 | Cindy Morgan | Changed consensus to Yes from Unknown |
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2025-08-21
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05 | Roman Danyliw | [Ballot comment] Thank you to Christer Holmberg for the GENART review . ** Is there a better source for this critical normative reference – it … [Ballot comment] Thank you to Christer Holmberg for the GENART review . ** Is there a better source for this critical normative reference – it is currently a personal website. Is there a DOI number? [NTRUPrimePQCS] Bernstein, D.J., Brumley, B. B., Chen,, M., Chuengsatiansup, C., Lange, T., Marotzke, A., Peng, B., Tuveri, N., Vredendaal, C. V., and B. Yang, "NTRU Prime: round 3", WWW https://ntruprime.cr.yp.to/nist/ntruprime- 20201007.pdf, October 2020. |
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2025-08-21
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05 | Roman Danyliw | [Ballot Position Update] New position, No Objection, has been recorded for Roman Danyliw |
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2025-08-20
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05 | Orie Steele | [Ballot comment] # Orie Steele, ART AD, comments for draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-05 CC @OR13 * line numbers: - https://author-tools.ietf.org/api/idnits?url=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-05.txt&submitcheck=True * comment syntax: - https://github.com/mnot/ietf-comments/blob/main/format.md * … [Ballot comment] # Orie Steele, ART AD, comments for draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-05 CC @OR13 * line numbers: - https://author-tools.ietf.org/api/idnits?url=https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-05.txt&submitcheck=True * comment syntax: - https://github.com/mnot/ietf-comments/blob/main/format.md * "Handling Ballot Positions": - https://ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/handling-ballot-positions/ ## Comments ### SSH_DISCONNECT_KEY_EXCHANGE_FAILED: Why not MUST? I'm sure this has been discussed by the WG, but: ``` 134 keys Q_C or Q_S are not the expected lengths. An abort for these 135 purposes is defined as a disconnect (SSH_MSG_DISCONNECT) of the 136 session and SHOULD use the SSH_DISCONNECT_KEY_EXCHANGE_FAILED reason 137 for the message, see section 11.1 (Disconnection Message) of 138 [RFC4253]. No further validation is required beyond what is ``` Which other reason codes are appropriate for this? ### Ok to Implement? ``` 193 Since sntrup761x25519-sha512 is expected to offer no reduction of 194 security compared to curve25519-sha256, it is recommended that it is 195 used and preferred whenever curve25519-sha256 is used today, when the 196 extra communication size and computational requirements are 197 acceptable. ``` ``` 213 IANA is requested to add a new "Method Name" of 214 "sntrup761x25519-sha512" to the "Key Exchange Method Names" registry 215 for Secure Shell (SSH) Protocol Parameters [IANA-KEX] with a 216 "reference" field to this RFC and the "OK to implement" field of 217 "SHOULD". ``` The security considerations recommends "sntrup761x25519-sha512" over "curve25519-sha256" but the IANA guidance for both algorithms is "SHOULD". I've seen discussion of this topic on the lists. Per https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9142.html#section-3.1.3-4 ``` Table 8 lists algorithms as "SHOULD" where implementations may be more efficient or widely deployed. The items listed as "MAY" in Table 8 are potentially less efficient. ``` ... ``` Methods that are newer or considered to be stronger usually require more device resources than many administrators and/or developers need are to be allowed ("MAY"). (Eventually, some of these methods could be moved by consensus to "SHOULD" to increase interoperability and security.) Methods that are not "weak" and have implementation consensus are encouraged ("SHOULD"). There needs to be at least one consensus method promoted to a status of mandatory to implement (MTI). This should help to provide continued interoperability even with the loss of one of the now disallowed MTI methods. ``` If the working group believes that both methods are equally widely deployed and equally efficient, SHOULD seems correct to me. I don't see how a WG can conclude that a PQ/T hybrid will be more widely deployed or more efficient than one of its traditional algorithm components, but I am not an expert on SSH. I'd advise the WG to make this a "MAY", and to tackle clarifying the guidance this registry is trying to provide in a separate document. I'm not recommending MAY for any reason other than I had to read RFC 9142 to understand what "Ok to implement" means. The arguments raised regarding PQ migration and harvest now decrypt later are important. However, I do not believe they justify reading a column in a registry differently for hybrids, even if there is a some chance of a security benefit from doing so. ## Nits ### Acknowledgements before security considerations ``` 156 4. Acknowledgements ``` Typically this comes at the end of the document, although I noted that RFC4251 put contributors after the introduction. |
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2025-08-20
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05 | Orie Steele | [Ballot Position Update] New position, Yes, has been recorded for Orie Steele |
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2025-08-20
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05 | Amanda Baber | IANA Review state changed to IANA OK - Actions Needed from Version Changed - Review Needed |
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2025-08-20
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05 | Amanda Baber | IANA Experts State changed to Expert Reviews OK from Reviews assigned |
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2025-08-20
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05 | Mike Bishop | [Ballot comment] The discussions around SHOULD/MAY have drawn a lot of attention, and I am surprised to see a SHOULD value here compared to the … [Ballot comment] The discussions around SHOULD/MAY have drawn a lot of attention, and I am surprised to see a SHOULD value here compared to the reasons given for other values in RFC9142. However, the distinction is small in practice -- it's not prohibited and not mandated. Thus, I don't see a reason to block further on that. In Section 1, should "The variant sntrup761 instance" be "The variant sntrup761" or "The sntrup761 instance"? Otherwise, I'm uncertain what a "variant instance" is in this context. I appreciate the acknowledgement that you've patterned this draft after RFC8731, but this doesn't seem to be useful information in the Introduction. You're already referencing that RFC extensively in the process of building a hybrid; it's unclear that this final statement in the Introduction adds anything. ===NITS FOLLOW=== Section 3: "procedure re-use" => "procedure re-uses" |
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2025-08-20
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05 | Mike Bishop | [Ballot Position Update] New position, No Objection, has been recorded for Mike Bishop |
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2025-08-20
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05 | Éric Vyncke | [Ballot comment] Thanks for the hard work and the discussions on this I-D. Balloting an ABSTAIN rather than NoObjection as I have two reservations (see … [Ballot comment] Thanks for the hard work and the discussions on this I-D. Balloting an ABSTAIN rather than NoObjection as I have two reservations (see below) on this I-D in its current form but they are not DISCUSS worthy. Please note that for an informational draft, ABSTAIN is like a NoObjection regarding the IESG evaluation. My first issue is the third consensus call *during* the IESG evaluation, using an *unclear email subject*, with a duration of 4 days... At least, the 3rd consensus call confirmed the 2nd consensus. My second issue is more fundamental: this I-D specifies an algorithm that must be negotiated and *interoperable* between clients and servers, i.e., it should really be "standards track" and not "informational". The latter would have been OK in the ISE stream to document the "sn..512@openssh.com" but not the official IANA entry of "sn...512". Normal COMMENTS: Abstract: unsure whether the IETF can write `This document describes a *widely* deployed` without citing a reference (as it then seems like an advertisement for an implementation). Section 1: if this document is informational, then `This document *specifies* a hybrid construction` is not correct: it should use "describes" rather than "specifies". Section 3: s/Some earlier implementation may /Some earlier implementation*s* may / Section 4: who is the "we" in `We wish to thank` ? The authors (I guess)? the SSH WG ? the IETF ? Please be specific. Section 4: does the list after `who contributed` mean that the identified people are actual contributors (in the IETF sense == provided a lot of text ?). |
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2025-08-20
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05 | Éric Vyncke | [Ballot Position Update] New position, Abstain, has been recorded for Éric Vyncke |
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2025-08-19
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05 | David Dong | IANA Experts State changed to Reviews assigned |
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2025-08-19
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05 | Ketan Talaulikar | [Ballot Position Update] New position, No Objection, has been recorded for Ketan Talaulikar |
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2025-08-18
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05 | Mahesh Jethanandani | [Ballot Position Update] New position, No Objection, has been recorded for Mahesh Jethanandani |
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2025-08-15
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05 | Paul Wouters | [Ballot comment] Thanks for the discussion on my concerns and giving me the confidence on mlkem768x25519-sha256 getting the same OK-to-implement status and that the WG … [Ballot comment] Thanks for the discussion on my concerns and giving me the confidence on mlkem768x25519-sha256 getting the same OK-to-implement status and that the WG will work on updating the IANA SSH Registration Policies to align with the fact that there is an SSH WG now for future algorithm discussions. I have updated my ballot to No Objection. |
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2025-08-15
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05 | Paul Wouters | [Ballot Position Update] Position for Paul Wouters has been changed to No Objection from Discuss |
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2025-08-15
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05 | (System) | IANA Review state changed to Version Changed - Review Needed from IANA OK - Actions Needed |
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2025-08-15
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05 | Simon Josefsson | New version available: draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-05.txt |
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2025-08-15
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05 | (System) | New version approved |
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2025-08-15
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05 | (System) | Request for posting confirmation emailed to previous authors: Jan Mojzis , Markus Friedl , Simon Josefsson |
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2025-08-15
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05 | Simon Josefsson | Uploaded new revision |
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2025-08-14
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04 | Gorry Fairhurst | [Ballot comment] Thank you for documenting this an Informational I-D. It's a pity there is a normative reference to a PDF document, rather than an … [Ballot comment] Thank you for documenting this an Informational I-D. It's a pity there is a normative reference to a PDF document, rather than an archived source, but for this particular, I-D I shall not worry about that. |
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2025-08-14
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04 | Gorry Fairhurst | [Ballot Position Update] New position, No Objection, has been recorded for Gorry Fairhurst |
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2025-08-14
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04 | Andy Newton | [Ballot Position Update] New position, No Objection, has been recorded for Andy Newton |
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2025-08-14
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04 | Jim Guichard | [Ballot Position Update] New position, No Objection, has been recorded for Jim Guichard |
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2025-08-06
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04 | Mohamed Boucadair | [Ballot Position Update] Position for Mohamed Boucadair has been changed to Yes from No Objection |
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2025-08-05
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04 | Paul Wouters | [Ballot discuss] I am balloting DISCUSS, because of the lack of consensus of the current draft, and its odd Informational Status combined with the "OK-to-implement" … [Ballot discuss] I am balloting DISCUSS, because of the lack of consensus of the current draft, and its odd Informational Status combined with the "OK-to-implement" field which is used as a Mandatory-To-Implement (MTI) declaration, resulting in an Informational Document using a Standards Track action of "MTI". This document's last calls generated about 100 messages: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ssh/?q=ntruprime%20wglc This document went through two WGLCs, after the first WGLC was appealed by Eric Rescorla. I agree with his grounds of appeal. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/8cTqj-LH_LxUBDWjr8lTjId3mRQ/ There was clearly no consensus. Participants are strongly divided into two groups. The discussion was heated, and a number of participants left the discussion as it became combative, tilting results to the proponents. This makes a consensus call even harder to evaluate, and in my opinion should be taken into account for the final outcome of both the intended status of the document and the MTI status. The opinions between the two WGLCs did not really change, other than one or two public votes. I also received a private message of someone who said he was tallied (by a WG member counting votes) into the wrong column, but they did not want/dare speak out publicly (I can share the name with AD or WG Chairs). I feel that Eric's appeal grounds are still valid after the second WGLC was run. To summarize my objections: 1) There is no consensus for this document to have a SHOULD for MTI 2) It is odd that an Informational document has a MTI other than MAY 3) There seemed to be consensus for all post quantum algorithms to get the same MTI status, similar to TLS. But making this document a SHOULD would mean all other post quantum algorithms would need a SHOULD as well, or for that consensus to be violated. 4) This crypto algorithm is not used in any current IETF protocol, and the Crypto Panel review was negative about using this algorithm (which lead to the AD Sponsor route with a previous SEC AD being aborted) 5) The deployment of the SSH protocol is strongly biased towards the one dominant implementation. This has been the argument used for the MTI status. However, use of postquantum algorithms is first and foremost to defend against "store now, decrypt later" attacks. As of April 2025, with the release of OpenSSH 10.0, the NTRUprime algorithm default has been replaced with mlkem: From https://www.openssh.com/releasenotes.html "the hybrid post-quantum algorithm mlkem768x25519-sha256 is now used by default for key agreement." This means that the main arguments to promote NTRUprime are not longer valid, as soon the usage of NTRUprime will become zero. And having a fallback algorithm does not defend against the "store now, decrypt later" attack in the case mlkem would have failed. 6) Due to the SSH protocol's use of "vendor namespaces", everyone who wants to can already implement any algorithm, and before this document's use of the non-vendorized ("IETF") namespace, everyone is running this algorithm already in the openssh vendor namespace. I believe the IETF namespace should be reserved for algorithms that the IETF strongly recommends (eg MTI SHOULD or MUST), but this algorithm does not satisfy these constrains. During the documents lifetime, I proposed to fix the IANA SSH Registry that was updated via RFC 9519 but did not take into account the easy availability of "vendor namespaces" with updated Registry Policies, and with a fix to rename the odd "OK-to-Implement", which was clearly a field originally meant for deprecation of no longer safe algorithms, to a proper MTI field. This was not taken into consideration. If this document would change the OK-to-implement field to MAY, that would resolve my DISCUSS. I would still think inclusion into the IETF namespace is a bit of a wrong signal, but I think that would be tolerable. Forcing people to implement NTRUprime this late in its deployment cycle when it is basically in its sunset phase, is not the forward thinking we are expecting from an RFC document (that is not, but pretends to be, a Standards Track document) |
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2025-08-05
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04 | Paul Wouters | [Ballot Position Update] New position, Discuss, has been recorded for Paul Wouters |
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2025-08-05
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04 | Mohamed Boucadair | [Ballot comment] Hi Markus, Jan, and Simon, Thank you for the effort put into documenting this. Thanks to Susan Hares for an early OPSDIR review … [Ballot comment] Hi Markus, Jan, and Simon, Thank you for the effort put into documenting this. Thanks to Susan Hares for an early OPSDIR review of the individual draft. Special thanks to Job Snijders for the detailed write-up and description of the development of this document. I have one minor comment: # Consider citing a reference CURRENT: The variant sntrup761 instance has been implemented widely. Cheers, Med |
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2025-08-05
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04 | Mohamed Boucadair | [Ballot Position Update] New position, No Objection, has been recorded for Mohamed Boucadair |
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2025-08-03
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04 | Erik Kline | [Ballot Position Update] New position, Yes, has been recorded for Erik Kline |
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2025-08-01
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04 | Morgan Condie | Placed on agenda for telechat - 2025-08-21 |
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2025-08-01
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04 | Deb Cooley | Ballot has been issued |
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2025-08-01
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04 | Deb Cooley | [Ballot Position Update] New position, Yes, has been recorded for Deb Cooley |
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2025-08-01
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04 | Deb Cooley | Created "Approve" ballot |
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2025-08-01
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04 | Deb Cooley | IESG state changed to IESG Evaluation from Waiting for AD Go-Ahead |
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2025-07-28
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04 | (System) | IESG state changed to Waiting for AD Go-Ahead from In Last Call |
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2025-07-23
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04 | David Dong | IESG/Authors/WG Chairs: IANA has completed its review of draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-04. If any part of this review is inaccurate, please let us know. IANA understands that, upon … IESG/Authors/WG Chairs: IANA has completed its review of draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-04. If any part of this review is inaccurate, please let us know. IANA understands that, upon approval of this document, there is a single action which we must complete. In the Key Exchange Method Names registry in the Secure Shell (SSH) Protocol Parameters registry group located at: https://www.iana.org/assignments/ssh-parameters/ the existing registration for: Method Name: sntrup761x25519-sha512 Note: OK to Implement: SHOULD will have its reference changed to [ RFC-to-be ]. We understand that this is the only action required to be completed upon approval of this document. NOTE: The action requested in this document will not be completed until the document has been approved for publication as an RFC. This message is meant only to confirm the action that will be performed. For definitions of IANA review states, please see: https://datatracker.ietf.org/help/state/draft/iana-review Thank you, David Dong IANA Services Sr. Specialist |
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2025-07-23
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04 | (System) | IANA Review state changed to IANA OK - Actions Needed from IANA - Review Needed |
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2025-07-23
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04 | Vincent Roca | Request for IETF Last Call review by SECDIR Completed: Ready. Reviewer: Vincent Roca. Sent review to list. |
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2025-07-15
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04 | Tero Kivinen | Request for IETF Last Call review by SECDIR is assigned to Vincent Roca |
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2025-07-07
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04 | Morgan Condie | IANA Review state changed to IANA - Review Needed |
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2025-07-07
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04 | Morgan Condie | The following Last Call announcement was sent out (ends 2025-07-28): From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce CC: debcooley1@gmail.com, draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh@ietf.org, job@sobornost.net, ssh@ietf.org, sshm-chairs@ietf.org … The following Last Call announcement was sent out (ends 2025-07-28): From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce CC: debcooley1@gmail.com, draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh@ietf.org, job@sobornost.net, ssh@ietf.org, sshm-chairs@ietf.org Reply-To: last-call@ietf.org Sender: Subject: Last Call: (Secure Shell (SSH) Key Exchange Method Using Hybrid Streamlined NTRU Prime sntrup761 and X25519 with SHA-512: sntrup761x25519-sha512) to Informational RFC The IESG has received a request from the Secure Shell Maintenance WG (sshm) to consider the following document: - 'Secure Shell (SSH) Key Exchange Method Using Hybrid Streamlined NTRU Prime sntrup761 and X25519 with SHA-512: sntrup761x25519-sha512' as Informational RFC The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the last-call@ietf.org mailing lists by 2025-07-28. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. Abstract This document describes a widely deployed hybrid key exchange method in the Secure Shell (SSH) protocol that is based on Streamlined NTRU Prime sntrup761 and X25519 with SHA-512. The file can be obtained via https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh/ The following IPR Declarations may be related to this I-D: https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/6544/ |
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2025-07-07
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04 | Morgan Condie | IESG state changed to In Last Call from Last Call Requested |
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2025-07-07
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04 | Morgan Condie | Last call announcement was changed |
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2025-07-04
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04 | Deb Cooley | Last call was requested |
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2025-07-04
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04 | Deb Cooley | Last call announcement was generated |
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2025-07-04
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04 | Deb Cooley | Ballot approval text was generated |
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2025-07-04
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04 | Deb Cooley | IESG state changed to Last Call Requested from AD Evaluation::AD Followup |
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2025-07-04
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04 | (System) | Changed action holders to Deb Cooley (IESG state changed) |
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2025-07-04
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04 | (System) | Sub state has been changed to AD Followup from Revised I-D Needed |
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2025-07-04
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04 | Simon Josefsson | New version available: draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-04.txt |
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2025-07-04
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04 | (System) | New version approved |
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2025-07-04
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04 | (System) | Request for posting confirmation emailed to previous authors: Jan Mojzis , Markus Friedl , Simon Josefsson |
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2025-07-04
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04 | Simon Josefsson | Uploaded new revision |
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2025-06-01
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03 | Deb Cooley | comments are available here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/r5F6-V-VQiVCnHrFoFqC46mVTAY/ |
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2025-06-01
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03 | (System) | Changed action holders to Markus Friedl, Simon Josefsson, Jan Mojzis (IESG state changed) |
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2025-06-01
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03 | Deb Cooley | IESG state changed to AD Evaluation::Revised I-D Needed from AD Evaluation |
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2025-05-23
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03 | Deb Cooley | IESG state changed to AD Evaluation from Publication Requested |
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2025-05-23
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03 | Deb Cooley | Ballot writeup was changed |
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2025-05-23
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03 | Deb Cooley | Ballot writeup was changed |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | # Document Shepherd Write-Up for draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-03 Overview: this document has been controversial and its processing in the IETF both before and after the formation of … # Document Shepherd Write-Up for draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-03 Overview: this document has been controversial and its processing in the IETF both before and after the formation of the SSHM WG. The controversy has multiple bases and dimensions, some of which are related, some independently controversial, but the starting points are: - The I-D specifies a mechanism to protect against potential "record-now-decrypt-later" attacks from the future invention of a cryptographically relevant quantum computer (CRQC). Consensus exists in the IETF such protections are a desirable feature in security protocols. - The specification itself is clear, implemented by multiple parties, and widely available through numerous operating system distributions. - This specific mechanism has been deployed as the default KEX by some SSH implementations (incl. OpenSSH) for about 5 years and so has seen widespread use, it is expected to continue to be used for maybe a decade to come. The controversy involved: - This specific mechanism is based on an algorithm (NTRU Prime) that has not been selected as a "winner" in the NIST post-quantum competition. It should be noted that NTRU Prime has no known weaknesses and a fairly long history in the cryptographic community; the SSHM WG has other drafts in the pipeline to handle NIST "winners" but how to signal IETF or WG preferences in this space is inherently tricky. - (valid) opinions in the IETF differ markedly as to whether or not publishing an RFC that defines how to use a protocol (like SSH) with a specific algorithm (like NTRU), especially in the case where the combination is not expected to be a preferred/default (the combination defined here needs to be included in an IANA registry and that has happened already). As a result we have reasoned and reasonable opinions from well-informed WG participants (and others who care about the generalisation of these topics), ranging anywhere on the spectrum from: ... "- this MUST be a mandatory-to-implement thing" ... to ... "- this need not be published in an RFC, the IANA code-point alone is sufficient (or maybe better)" ... We also have participants preferring almost all opinions in between the above, some strongly, some weakly. Any change to intended RFC status or to RFC 2119 terms in this document is likely to spawn an extended and largely pointless (re-)discussion, so we (the WG chairs) would strongly encourage not going there during IESG review. Please ask the SEC ADs or WG chairs before suggesting such. (Though we may well get the discussion anyway during IETF last call, or maybe people will conclude that we've already said all that's to be said, which is the case :-) Paul Wouters indicated to the SSH WG chairs he'd abstain once this document reaches the IESG. Lastly the chairs also have observed some historic and personnel based issues that have caused friction - even well-intentioned apparently trivial suggested changes may trigger yet more friction. ## Document History 1. Does the working group (WG) consensus represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others being silent, or did it reach broad agreement? See the overview above. 2. Was there controversy about particular points, or were there decisions where the consensus was particularly rough? See the overview above. Consensus on the spec is clear. Consensus on all RFC 2119 terms is rough, but we got there in the end. Relevant chair summaries: 29/01/2025 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/5Plc5CBkNJ-D4Ds26k-OF49Fi4g/ 01/03/2025 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/NU4KkOw-kqLh39PeIgzbuBTos90/ 2. Was there controversy about particular points, or were there decisions where the consensus was particularly rough? See the overview above. 3. Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme discontent? If so, please summarize the areas of conflict in separate email messages to the responsible Area Director. (It should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is publicly available.) We've already had an appeal of the 1st WGLC, to the responsible AD and processed that, related to the RFC 2119 terms. 4. For protocol documents, are there existing implementations of the contents of the document? Have a significant number of potential implementers indicated plans to implement? Are any existing implementations reported somewhere, either in the document itself (as [RFC 7942][3] recommends) or elsewhere (where)? Widely implemented, selected as the default KEX in OpenSSH, for about 5 years. It'll no longer be the default KEX going forward, but will continue to be supported and used for many years to come. ## Additional Reviews 5. Do the contents of this document closely interact with technologies in other IETF working groups or external organizations, and would it therefore benefit from their review? Have those reviews occurred? If yes, describe which reviews took place. N/A. Technically, this is SSH-internal. Politically, this touches loads of things but additional review is not really needed, nor will it be useful. 6. Describe how the document meets any required formal expert review criteria, such as the MIB Doctor, YANG Doctor, media type, and URI type reviews. N/A. 7. If the document contains a YANG module, has the final version of the module been checked with any of the [recommended validation tools][4] for syntax and formatting validation? If there are any resulting errors or warnings, what is the justification for not fixing them at this time? Does the YANG module comply with the Network Management Datastore Architecture (NMDA) as specified in [RFC 8342][5]? N/A. 8. Describe reviews and automated checks performed to validate sections of the final version of the document written in a formal language, such as XML code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, CBOR's CDDL, etc. N/A. ## Document Shepherd Checks 9. Based on the shepherd's review of the document, is it their opinion that this document is needed, clearly written, complete, correctly designed, and ready to be handed off to the responsible Area Director? Yes. 10. Several IETF Areas have assembled [lists of common issues that their reviewers encounter][6]. For which areas have such issues been identified and addressed? For which does this still need to happen in subsequent reviews? N/A. 11. What type of RFC publication is being requested on the IETF stream ([Best Current Practice][12], [Proposed Standard, Internet Standard][13], [Informational, Experimental or Historic][14])? Why is this the proper type of RFC? Do all Datatracker state attributes correctly reflect this intent? Informational. Yes, datatracker state reflects the intent. 12. Have reasonable efforts been made to remind all authors of the intellectual property rights (IPR) disclosure obligations described in [BCP 79][7]? To the best of your knowledge, have all required disclosures been filed? If not, explain why. If yes, summarize any relevant discussion, including links to publicly-available messages when applicable. In-progress, the SSHM chairs do not expect obstacles here. See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/S3Vhfm-HW0MOJwq9eHBkVN0w7Ds/ 13. Has each author, editor, and contributor shown their willingness to be listed as such? If the total number of authors and editors on the front page is greater than five, please provide a justification. In-progress. We don't forsee obstacles here. 14. Document any remaining I-D nits in this document. Simply running the [idnits tool][8] is not enough; please review the ["Content Guidelines" on authors.ietf.org][15]. (Also note that the current idnits tool generates some incorrect warnings; a rewrite is underway.) Seems fine. Some "weird spacing" nits for parts of hexadecimal dumps in included test vectors, but those'll either be fine or be fixed by the RFC editor. 15. Should any informative references be normative or vice-versa? See the [IESG Statement on Normative and Informative References][16]. All good. 16. List any normative references that are not freely available to anyone. Did the community have sufficient access to review any such normative references? All good. 17. Are there any normative downward references (see [RFC 3967][9] and [BCP 97][10]) that are not already listed in the [DOWNREF registry][17]? If so, list them. All good. 18. Are there normative references to documents that are not ready to be submitted to the IESG for publication or are otherwise in an unclear state? If so, what is the plan for their completion? All good. 19. Will publication of this document change the status of any existing RFCs? If so, does the Datatracker metadata correctly reflect this and are those RFCs listed on the title page, in the abstract, and discussed in the introduction? If not, explain why and point to the part of the document where the relationship of this document to these other RFCs is discussed. No status change for existing RFCs. 20. Describe the document shepherd's review of the IANA considerations section, especially with regard to its consistency with the body of the document. Confirm that all aspects of the document requiring IANA assignments are associated with the appropriate reservations in IANA registries. Confirm that any referenced IANA registries have been clearly identified. Confirm that each newly created IANA registry specifies its initial contents, allocations procedures, and a reasonable name (see [RFC 8126][11]). All good. Also see the overview. 21. List any new IANA registries that require Designated Expert Review for future allocations. Are the instructions to the Designated Expert clear? Please include suggestions of designated experts, if appropriate. N/A. [1]: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/ [2]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4858.html [3]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7942.html [4]: https://wiki.ietf.org/group/ops/yang-review-tools [5]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8342.html [6]: https://wiki.ietf.org/group/iesg/ExpertTopics [7]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/bcp79 [8]: https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ [9]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3967.html [10]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/bcp97 [11]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8126.html [12]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2026.html#section-5 [13]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2026.html#section-4.1 [14]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2026.html#section-4.2 [15]: https://authors.ietf.org/en/content-guidelines-overview [16]: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/normative-informative-references/ [17]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/downref/ |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | IETF WG state changed to Submitted to IESG for Publication from WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | IESG state changed to Publication Requested from I-D Exists |
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2025-05-16
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03 | (System) | Changed action holders to Deb Cooley (IESG state changed) |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | Responsible AD changed to Deb Cooley |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | Document is now in IESG state Publication Requested |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | Tag Revised I-D Needed - Issue raised by WGLC cleared. |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | # Document Shepherd Write-Up for draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-03 Overview: this document has been controversial and its processing in the IETF both before and after the formation of … # Document Shepherd Write-Up for draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-03 Overview: this document has been controversial and its processing in the IETF both before and after the formation of the SSHM WG. The controversy has multiple bases and dimensions, some of which are related, some independently controversial, but the starting points are: - The I-D specifies a mechanism to protect against potential "record-now-decrypt-later" attacks from the future invention of a cryptographically relevant quantum computer (CRQC). Consensus exists in the IETF such protections are a desirable feature in security protocols. - The specification itself is clear, implemented by multiple parties, and widely available through numerous operating system distributions. - This specific mechanism has been deployed as the default KEX by some SSH implementations (incl. OpenSSH) for about 5 years and so has seen widespread use, it is expected to continue to be used for maybe a decade to come. The controversy involved: - This specific mechanism is based on an algorithm (NTRU Prime) that has not been selected as a "winner" in the NIST post-quantum competition. It should be noted that NTRU Prime has no known weaknesses and a fairly long history in the cryptographic community; the SSHM WG has other drafts in the pipeline to handle NIST "winners" but how to signal IETF or WG preferences in this space is inherently tricky. - (valid) opinions in the IETF differ markedly as to whether or not publishing an RFC that defines how to use a protocol (like SSH) with a specific algorithm (like NTRU), especially in the case where the combination is not expected to be a preferred/default (the combination defined here needs to be included in an IANA registry and that has happened already). As a result we have reasoned and reasonable opinions from well-informed WG participants (and others who care about the generalisation of these topics), ranging anywhere on the spectrum from: ... "- this MUST be a mandatory-to-implement thing" ... to ... "- this need not be published in an RFC, the IANA code-point alone is sufficient (or maybe better)" ... We also have participants preferring almost all opinions in between the above, some strongly, some weakly. Any change to intended RFC status or to RFC 2119 terms in this document is likely to spawn an extended and largely pointless (re-)discussion, so we (the WG chairs) would strongly encourage not going there during IESG review. Please ask the SEC ADs or WG chairs before suggesting such. (Though we may well get the discussion anyway during IETF last call, or maybe people will conclude that we've already said all that's to be said, which is the case :-) Paul Wouters indicated to the SSH WG chairs he'd abstain once this document reaches the IESG. Lastly the chairs also have observed some historic and personnel based issues that have caused friction - even well-intentioned apparently trivial suggested changes may trigger yet more friction. ## Document History 1. Does the working group (WG) consensus represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others being silent, or did it reach broad agreement? See the overview above. 2. Was there controversy about particular points, or were there decisions where the consensus was particularly rough? See the overview above. Consensus on the spec is clear. Consensus on all RFC 2119 terms is rough, but we got there in the end. Relevant chair summaries: 29/01/2025 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/5Plc5CBkNJ-D4Ds26k-OF49Fi4g/ 01/03/2025 https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/NU4KkOw-kqLh39PeIgzbuBTos90/ 2. Was there controversy about particular points, or were there decisions where the consensus was particularly rough? See the overview above. 3. Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme discontent? If so, please summarize the areas of conflict in separate email messages to the responsible Area Director. (It should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is publicly available.) We've already had an appeal of the 1st WGLC, to the responsible AD and processed that, related to the RFC 2119 terms. 4. For protocol documents, are there existing implementations of the contents of the document? Have a significant number of potential implementers indicated plans to implement? Are any existing implementations reported somewhere, either in the document itself (as [RFC 7942][3] recommends) or elsewhere (where)? Widely implemented, selected as the default KEX in OpenSSH, for about 5 years. It'll no longer be the default KEX going forward, but will continue to be supported and used for many years to come. ## Additional Reviews 5. Do the contents of this document closely interact with technologies in other IETF working groups or external organizations, and would it therefore benefit from their review? Have those reviews occurred? If yes, describe which reviews took place. N/A. Technically, this is SSH-internal. Politically, this touches loads of things but additional review is not really needed, nor will it be useful. 6. Describe how the document meets any required formal expert review criteria, such as the MIB Doctor, YANG Doctor, media type, and URI type reviews. N/A. 7. If the document contains a YANG module, has the final version of the module been checked with any of the [recommended validation tools][4] for syntax and formatting validation? If there are any resulting errors or warnings, what is the justification for not fixing them at this time? Does the YANG module comply with the Network Management Datastore Architecture (NMDA) as specified in [RFC 8342][5]? N/A. 8. Describe reviews and automated checks performed to validate sections of the final version of the document written in a formal language, such as XML code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, CBOR's CDDL, etc. N/A. ## Document Shepherd Checks 9. Based on the shepherd's review of the document, is it their opinion that this document is needed, clearly written, complete, correctly designed, and ready to be handed off to the responsible Area Director? Yes. 10. Several IETF Areas have assembled [lists of common issues that their reviewers encounter][6]. For which areas have such issues been identified and addressed? For which does this still need to happen in subsequent reviews? N/A. 11. What type of RFC publication is being requested on the IETF stream ([Best Current Practice][12], [Proposed Standard, Internet Standard][13], [Informational, Experimental or Historic][14])? Why is this the proper type of RFC? Do all Datatracker state attributes correctly reflect this intent? Informational. Yes, datatracker state reflects the intent. 12. Have reasonable efforts been made to remind all authors of the intellectual property rights (IPR) disclosure obligations described in [BCP 79][7]? To the best of your knowledge, have all required disclosures been filed? If not, explain why. If yes, summarize any relevant discussion, including links to publicly-available messages when applicable. In-progress, the SSHM chairs do not expect obstacles here. See https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/S3Vhfm-HW0MOJwq9eHBkVN0w7Ds/ 13. Has each author, editor, and contributor shown their willingness to be listed as such? If the total number of authors and editors on the front page is greater than five, please provide a justification. In-progress. We don't forsee obstacles here. 14. Document any remaining I-D nits in this document. Simply running the [idnits tool][8] is not enough; please review the ["Content Guidelines" on authors.ietf.org][15]. (Also note that the current idnits tool generates some incorrect warnings; a rewrite is underway.) Seems fine. Some "weird spacing" nits for parts of hexadecimal dumps in included test vectors, but those'll either be fine or be fixed by the RFC editor. 15. Should any informative references be normative or vice-versa? See the [IESG Statement on Normative and Informative References][16]. All good. 16. List any normative references that are not freely available to anyone. Did the community have sufficient access to review any such normative references? All good. 17. Are there any normative downward references (see [RFC 3967][9] and [BCP 97][10]) that are not already listed in the [DOWNREF registry][17]? If so, list them. All good. 18. Are there normative references to documents that are not ready to be submitted to the IESG for publication or are otherwise in an unclear state? If so, what is the plan for their completion? All good. 19. Will publication of this document change the status of any existing RFCs? If so, does the Datatracker metadata correctly reflect this and are those RFCs listed on the title page, in the abstract, and discussed in the introduction? If not, explain why and point to the part of the document where the relationship of this document to these other RFCs is discussed. No status change for existing RFCs. 20. Describe the document shepherd's review of the IANA considerations section, especially with regard to its consistency with the body of the document. Confirm that all aspects of the document requiring IANA assignments are associated with the appropriate reservations in IANA registries. Confirm that any referenced IANA registries have been clearly identified. Confirm that each newly created IANA registry specifies its initial contents, allocations procedures, and a reasonable name (see [RFC 8126][11]). All good. Also see the overview. 21. List any new IANA registries that require Designated Expert Review for future allocations. Are the instructions to the Designated Expert clear? Please include suggestions of designated experts, if appropriate. N/A. [1]: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/ [2]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4858.html [3]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7942.html [4]: https://wiki.ietf.org/group/ops/yang-review-tools [5]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8342.html [6]: https://wiki.ietf.org/group/iesg/ExpertTopics [7]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/bcp79 [8]: https://www.ietf.org/tools/idnits/ [9]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3967.html [10]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/bcp97 [11]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8126.html [12]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2026.html#section-5 [13]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2026.html#section-4.1 [14]: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2026.html#section-4.2 [15]: https://authors.ietf.org/en/content-guidelines-overview [16]: https://www.ietf.org/about/groups/iesg/statements/normative-informative-references/ [17]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/downref/ |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | Notification list changed to job@sobornost.net because the document shepherd was set |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | Document shepherd changed to Job Snijders |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | Per https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/5Plc5CBkNJ-D4Ds26k-OF49Fi4g/ |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Job Snijders | Intended Status changed to Informational from None |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Simon Josefsson | New version available: draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-03.txt |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Simon Josefsson | New version accepted (logged-in submitter: Simon Josefsson) |
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2025-05-16
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03 | Simon Josefsson | Uploaded new revision |
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2025-04-24
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02 | Simon Josefsson | New version available: draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-02.txt |
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2025-04-24
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02 | Simon Josefsson | New version accepted (logged-in submitter: Simon Josefsson) |
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2025-04-24
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02 | Simon Josefsson | Uploaded new revision |
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2025-03-16
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01 | Job Snijders | WGLC start: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/PVBl6I1qyDTj3U2R7X0ePsDKomk/ midpoint: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/5Plc5CBkNJ-D4Ds26k-OF49Fi4g/ brief on appeal: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/Y2IyPWN9V3NPlDVUSvZujUmwWIw/ Poll conclusion: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ssh/NU4KkOw-kqLh39PeIgzbuBTos90/ |
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2025-03-16
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01 | Job Snijders | Tag Revised I-D Needed - Issue raised by WGLC set. |
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2025-03-16
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01 | Job Snijders | IETF WG state changed to WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up from WG Document |
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2024-12-09
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01 | Simon Josefsson | New version available: draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-01.txt |
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2024-12-09
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01 | (System) | New version approved |
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2024-12-09
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01 | (System) | Request for posting confirmation emailed to previous authors: Jan Mojzis , Markus Friedl , Simon Josefsson |
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2024-12-09
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01 | Simon Josefsson | Uploaded new revision |
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2024-11-07
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00 | Job Snijders | Changed document external resources from: None to: gitlab_repo https://gitlab.com/jas/ietf-ntruprime related_implementations https://www.openssh.com/ webpage https://gitlab.com/jas/ietf-ntruprime |
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2024-11-07
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00 | Job Snijders | This document now replaces draft-josefsson-ntruprime-ssh instead of None |
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2024-11-07
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00 | Simon Josefsson | New version available: draft-ietf-sshm-ntruprime-ssh-00.txt |
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2024-11-07
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00 | Job Snijders | WG -00 approved |
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2024-11-07
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00 | Simon Josefsson | Set submitter to "Simon Josefsson ", replaces to draft-josefsson-ntruprime-ssh and sent approval email to group chairs: sshm-chairs@ietf.org |
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2024-11-07
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00 | Simon Josefsson | Uploaded new revision |