Minutes IETF105: hrpc
minutes-105-hrpc-00

HRPC @ IETF105

Agenda HRPC IETF 105

# Welcome and introduction (5 minutes)

        Scribe, Note takers
        Agenda Review
        Research Group status

# Talk by JC de Martin (30 minutes)

        Ethical and Socially Aware Data Labels: https://nexa.polito.it/node/1515

# Updates/discussions on research group drafts (30 minutes)

        draft-irtf-hrpc-association, Joe Hall and Stéphane Couture
        draft-irtf-hrpc-political, Niels ten Oever (remote)

# Update/discussion on draft not yet adopted by the RG (15 minutes)

        draft-guerra-feminism, Juliana Guerra and Mallory Knodel

# Update on the Guidelines draft and short presentations from reviewers (20
minutes)

        draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines, Gurshabad Grover and Niels ten Oever
        (remote)

# AOB (10 minutes)

---

hrpc.io

Presentation:

Ethical and Socially Aware Data Labels: https://nexa.polito.it/node/1515 (JC de
Martin, Nexa Center for Internet & Society)

        * Slides
        https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-hrpc-demartin-00
        * Authors: Elena Beretta, Antonio Vetrò, Bruno Lepri, JC De Martin *
        crucial role of data in digital systems * Cathy O'Neal, WMD: if
        admission models trained on American univs before 1960s, very few women
        * to avoid unintended negative effects: care is needed at all stages of
        design & dev * steps
                * data collection
                * data usage
        * label datasets to help computer scientists
        * certain data has characteristics that may be dangerous
        * risk of discrimination e.g. uneven distribution in gender balance in
        input data * useful for engineers and third parties (certificator) *
        other initiatives:
                * dataset nutrition label project
                * datasheets for datasets
        * Three building blocks for EASAL
                * disproportionate datasets
                * correlations and collinearity
                * data quality
                        * ISO/IEC 25012 and 25024. Quality dimensions:
                        accuracy, completeness, consistency...
                * Testing the EASAL approach on a real case
                        * case: credit card default dataset
                                * taiwan, april 2005 - sept 2005
                                * age, credit data, demographic attributes (not
                                race but gender etc to discriminate)
                        * Disproportionate datasets
                                * Histogram of variable age (graph) Density to
                                Age
                                        * not necessarily bad, just something
                                        to keep in mind
                                * 60% of this dataset are women, 50% single vs
                                married, 46.7% have attended college. Can have
                                implications
                        * Correlation and collinearity
                                * correlation between payment default and
                                education, gender, marital status
                        * Data Quality
                                * accuracy and completeness - quite good
                * EASAL approach could help datasets to be more aware of the
                potential problems BEFORE using the dataset, to be made more
                aware of the risks of downstream unintended problems.
        * QUESTIONS?
                * Jonathan Hoyland: is labelling data not going to lead more
                discrimination?
                        * Emphasis on the word "unintended".
                        * follow up: could adding noise help? To break the
                        collinearity?
                * Joe Hall: DARPA has a version of Android - Privacy Enhanced
                Android. Lets devs tag data for risk. Does this work relate to
                that?
                        * good idea

Draft Presentations:
        * Draft-association update
        https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-hrpc-demartin-00
                * Joe Hall (CDT) and Stephane Couture (York U)
                * no update since last time
                * intro for SC
                * Background:
                        * Niels and Gisela handed it off at IETF 104
                        * about ~75% done
                * Summary
                        * research question: how does the architecture of the
                        Internet enable/inhibit the right to freedom of
                        assembly and association? * methodology: test the
                        relationship between protocols and association,
                        assembly through cases * 7 cases
                * Question 1: causality
                        * difficult
                        * 8280 hasn't done this
                        * drop? just want to describe the relationship
                * Question 2: which cases?
                        * conversing, p2p, identity
                        * what else? gatekeepers like app stores? Apple can rm
                        Twitter * social case?
                * Question 3: assocation on proprietary platforms
                        * implicitly critical of large platforms such as social
                        media companies * ... but also Twitter helps
                        revolutions? * Proposal is to soften this critical
                        stance to highlight that humans have adapted platforms
                        to their association needs
                                * freedom of disassociation?
                * Question 4: who is the audience for this draft?
                * Minor changes
                        * needs to be less normative, more descriptive
        * Question/Comment 5:
                        * great work, but careful about going down the DDoS
                        rabbit hole especially as HRPC has had that
                        conversation early on and it was not helpful. * Mallory
                        echoes that point. * Joe: we want to use it as a
                        discussion point. * Mallory: perhaps go back to the
                        list. * CCS: you can find the discussion starting here:
                        https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/hrpc/Bs-AQftKY8b8hwXCjDxXDuudO3s
        * Comment, Juliana:
                * important to keep in mind the end user
        * Comment by Leandro
                * Need to have some governance across orgs. Case of instant
                messenger: not federated or interoperable
        * -03 in a month, questions to the list

        * Draft political:
        https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-hrpc-draft-irtf-hrpc-political-03-00
                * by Niels
                * review by Julia Guerra and Michael Rogers
                * overview of changes
                * where is the document now?
                * Mallory: can you talk about the recent discussion on the list?
                        * Andrew Sullivan said that there might be consistency
                        problems * conversation might not have been about the
                        most current version * Niels thinks it's ready
                * Joe Hall: want to give one last review
                * Gurshabad Grover: analysis of positions taken by IETF/IRTF in
                scope?
                        * Niels: tech and politics and community positions.
                        Tried to document positions observed in the community
                        as they were. * not sure how to further analyze the
                        positions
                * Avri: can people please do a thorough read through?
                * Joseph Potvin: don't see a reference to RFC 2119. Provides
                formal definitions of words. * Mallory: does this draft achieve
                capture of discussion on political boundaries of protocols?

        * Draft feminism by Juliana Guerra:
        https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-hrpc-draft-guerra-feminism-01slides-105-draft-guerra-feminism-01-00
                * two different problems
                        * user level
                                * Internet threats considering gender
                                * how are those threats be related to protocols?
                                * in draft -01: Feminist Principle of Internet
                                capture the idea that different social contexts
                                may determine people's capacities to exercise
                                rights
                        * IETF level
                                * RFCs and IDs
                * Intersectionality
                * oppressions can be structural and dynamic: example of the
                presenter's different privileges in different contexts * Matrix
                of domination * Access Principles:
                        * how protocol related concepts ('end-to-end
                        principle', 'interoperability', etc.) capture (or not
                        capture) access
                * Matters related to IETF as an org removed from this version
                * Next steps:
                        * participative process
                        * presenting at at Citizen Lab Summer institute
                * Mallory: also participating in mailing lists about the draft
                * Tim Costello @ mic
                * Niels: how are you going to operationalize how power is
                understood? power == money in capitalism.
                        * have to scope it down though it is hard with
                        intersectional feminism
                * Jonathan: privacy? if you can't discriminate between people
                then you can't, well, discriminate between them. Then is
                privacy a more important problem?
                        * Feminist principles. The issue is how can we make our
                        own choices on the Internet? * Mallory: part of the
                        point is to not have to hide that you're LGBT, or
                        you're a woman. Positive expression of autonomy.
                * Sophie: how has this draft been received? feminist protocols
                or just impact on feminism of protocols? Also, what can be
                learned from feminist infra?
                        * Feminist protocols is the dream!
                * Hernani Marques from PEP foundation: concrete cases of
                oppression. Connect with Sarah Jamie Lewis who has written a
                book on oppression (in Vancouver) * Stephane Couture: thank you
                for bringing this work. Alternative networks by Leandro

        * Guidelines for Human Rights Protocol and Architecture by Gurshabad
        Grover
        https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-hrpc-slides-for-update-on-draft-irtf-hrpc-guidelines-
                * Draft updated in May, thanks Joe
                * Addressed Avri's review
                * Next steps
                * Niels
                        * Joe
                * Mallory: human rights review team mailing list officially
                shut down.

Gurshabad Grover on human rights review: not much experience since last meeting.